Why is There Little Interest in the Nichols Murder?

[KatBradshaw]

Well not like in the case of Kelly indoors or like the double event.

[Tom_Wescott]

In the case of Nichols, there's not much to debate. There's no controversy over her candidacy as a Ripper victim, because her murder occurred before there was a recognized series, there's nowhere near the press information, and her case is unique in that there's not a single witness to debate over. What's interesting is to see how lacksadasical Dr. Llewellyn and the constables were when there was no pressure on them to catch a mad killer. It all changed after this murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Debate

Hello Everyone,

There seemed to be more press coverage over Tabram than Nichols but that may be because Chapman's followed close behind. All of the murders were spaced farther apart except these two- which places poor Polly as an afterthought.

There is still room for discussion- or debate if you will.

Was she attacked from the front or behind?

Were there genital mutilations that were kept out of the public inquest ?

Was the killer interrupted by Cross ?

Was her murder silent or did the railway traffic muffle her cries.

Was the murderer right of left handed ?

Was Llewellyn as competent as one could be expected under those circumstances ?

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[DVV]

Was Llewellyn as competent as one could be expected under those circumstances ?
Hunter

Definitely not... Another neighbor, by the way, just like Killeen, but not a forensic expert.
However he did better than Killeen.
In fact, from Killeen to Bond, one would note some kind of "improvement", though all of them have made mistakes at times.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Were there genital mutilations that were kept out of the public inquest ?
Hunter

Impossible, imo. It couldn't have been kept secret by the numerous police and official reports.

Amitiés,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Hunter. I'll take a stab at your questions. But there's really not a lot of room for debate in this murder. I say this because all commentators seem to be in general agreement as to the details, and if everyone agrees, a debate is not likely to occur.

Was she attacked from the front or behind?

It would seem she was attacked from the front, rendered unconscious, and laid on the ground where her throat was cut.

Were there genital mutilations that were kept out of the public inquest ?

No. We have official files telling us of the injuries.

Was the killer interrupted by Cross ?

Almost certainly, unless Sam Flynn wants to 'revise' this murder out of the tally as well, along with Stride and Kelly. In fact, it's very likely the Ripper had time only to escape to a nearby yard where he watched Cross and Paul and possibly PC Neil. Although the mystery man who walked through Bucks Row unmolested after the police and doctors were on scene may have just been the 'Leon Goldstein' of this case, he may also have been the Ripper.

Was her murder silent or did the railway traffic muffle her cries.

Possibly neither. Many of the neighbors were not even awakened by the trodding steps of 7 policeman, so likewise Nichols may have been some noise and simply not have been heard.

Was the murderer right of left handed ?

He was right-handed. That's pretty well agreed upon.

Was Llewellyn as competent as one could be expected under those circumstances ?

Absolutely not. Not having investigated better at the scene can be chocked up to laziness. Just another dead whore, after all. But his later theorizing that her abdominal mutilations came BEFORE the wound to her throat is sheer stupidity.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

It would seem she was attacked from the front, rendered unconscious, and laid on the ground where her throat was cut.

Hi Tom,

I think all of your points are valid, but just to play devil's advocate here-

It would seem that an attack from the rear would be more advantageous as the victim would be less likely to fight back with her arms. He could also pull her back if she did resist to throw her off ballance. I am aware of the bruises on her face and good ol' Llewellyn's opinion of these, but the same hand reached with from the back could leave the same marks. These street prostitutes usually serviced their costomers from behind rather than from the front as this was less awkward. Many didn't allow full penetration to prevent venereal disease and unwanted pregnancy- Not to claim that poor Polly was necessarily concerned about that but that was probably her MO as well as the others.

Of course, in her besotten condition he may have just knocked her down and then choked her.

The one wound originating from the pubic area and ending over the thigh may have been the start of a uterus extraction that was either not followed through or was interrupted.

Just some thoughts.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Observer]

Hmmm, I'm not so sure. It is interesting, but I have my doubts. While it is true that the killer may not have had much blood on himself, his hands may have very well been blood stained and, if I was the killer, I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself by going to someone to tell them about the murder. I would just get as far away as possible and not look back.

Hmmmmm...interesting

all the best

Observer

[corey123]

Impossible, imo. It couldn't have been kept secret by the numerous police and official reports.

Amitiés,
David

Nichols injuries have always confused me. I wish they had a very detailed account of her injuries. In Don Rumbelows book he notes that there were two stab wounds near the vagina, but we have no record of them.

I dont have the post mortem examination report with me so I may be off my facts.

Edit: Here are those facts.
In a detailed summary report, dated 19 October 1888, Chief Inspector Swanson wrote: "Dr. Llewellyn of 152 Whitechapel Road was sent for, he pronounced life extinct and he describes the wounds as, - throat cut nearly severing head from body, abdomen cut open from centre of bottom of ribs along right side, under pelvis to left of stomach, there the wound was jagged: the coating of the stomach was cut in several places and two small stabs on private parts,..."

Yours truly

[Sox]

These street prostitutes usually serviced their costomers from behind rather than from the front as this was less awkward.

A Famous myth Hunter. The method most often used by these women was to grasp the skirts and raise them, facing the client, with her back to a fence or wall. Most Dollymops being loathe to turn their backs on men who were often violent towards them. Girls who had a Bully could afford to be less careful, but not the likes of Polly Nichols. It has also been suggested that most of these women favoured anal sex, a theory demolished by the almost epidemic presence of venereal disease in London.

[ianincleveland]

Hmmm, I'm not so sure. It is interesting, but I have my doubts. While it is true that the killer may not have had much blood on himself, his hands may have very well been blood stained and, if I was the killer, I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself by going to someone to tell them about the murder. I would just get as far away as possible and not look back.

Ive wondered did JTR have gloves to put on after a killing so his bloodstained hands werent visible???

[Hunter]

Prostitution

A Famous myth Hunter. The method most often used by these women was to grasp the skirts and raise them, facing the client, with her back to a fence or wall. Most Dollymops being loathe to turn their backs on men who were often violent towards them. Girls who had a Bully could afford to be less careful, but not the likes of Polly Nichols. It has also been suggested that most of these women favoured anal sex, a theory demolished by the almost epidemic presence of venereal disease in London.

Hi Sox,

I must admit that my source for the behaviour of street prostitutes was an obscure book ( the title escapes me at this moment) that I checked out long ago from my local library on Victorian prostitution. My only reason for reading it was its mention of the Ripper murders. The other sources are what's found in Victorian studies in other print and on the internet- and they are rather vague on the actual practices of what was coined in the earlier 19th century as "Dollymops".

I do feel that this is a subject that is little discussed, though pertinent to the overall understanding of the Whitechapel murders. Any further information on the proclivities of street prostitutes would be greatly appreciated.

In closing, I would say that I agree that anal sex by prostitutes was unlikely for the reasons you have stated and the cultural stigma that was attached to it.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Tom_Wescott]

I think what Sox is trying to say is that when researching prostitutes, it's not good enough to just read a book...you've gotta get out there and do your research first hand. Sure, it ain't cheap, but truth never is. Rock on, Sox!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

I think what Sox is trying to say is that when researching prostitutes, it's not good enough to just read a book...you've gotta get out there and do your research first hand. Sure, it ain't cheap, but truth never is. Rock on, Sox!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Ah, yes, first hand research. Well, I found that being serviced from behind gives you someplace to set your beer.

Cheers,
Hunter

[Tom_Wescott]

No, you want her on top. That way she has two free hands to hold your beer and your sandwich and you don't have to worry about her spilling anything. Just put tape over her eyes, cuz Lord knows it's no fun to be stared at while you eat.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Sox seems to have pulled us off-topic with his rousing sex talk.