What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed?

[MrBarnett]

This is great, I have had to add a new section(paragraph) to my work.
The debate is fascinating.
At present I must say thatIi have to go with No exit route, the evidence just doesn't confirm such really existed. But I remain open to the idea, if evidence should emerge.


Steve

You'll notice that Deb's tax record shows a house and yard at no. 9 occupied by someone named J E Hartshorne. The directory Simon posted shows a building supplies dealer named Jane Eliza Hartshorne at that address.

That's most likely where the materials from the large (much larger than Browns) stables were being stored.

[Debra A]

Thanks, Debs. I can't see the stores there.

Do you have Buck's Row?

This is Buck's Row in close up, 87 and 1890 Land Tax


1887


1890

[Elamarna]

Thanks, Debs. I can't see the stores there.

Do you have Buck's Row?

This is great, I have had to add a new section(paragraph) to my work.
The debate is fascinating.
At present I must say thatIi have to go with No exit route, the evidence just doesn't confirm such really existed. But I remain open to the idea, if evidence should emerge.


Steve

[MrBarnett]

Thanks, Debs. I can't see the stores there.

Do you have Buck's Row?

[Debra A]

Yes, that's what I was thinking of. Well done, sir.

I can't make it out on my phone, though.

Gary,
This is Winthrop St in the 1887 land tax too if its any use:

[MrBarnett]

Hi Mr. Barnett,

Brown's Stable Yard.

The trick is to find another yard in Bucks Row/Winthrop Street containing Stables, Coach Houses and Sheds.

And don't forget, all this material wasn't laying around like at Home Depot.

It constituted said Stables, Coach Houses and Sheds.

Whether or not the yard warranted a clock tower and a bell is something for us to investigate, not just dismiss because it doesn't suit any particular preconceptions. The Stores were on two floors.

The source for the address was in my original post, and is in the following attachment. You'll notice that the Yard doesn't feature an address in Bucks Row.

[ATTACH]18866[/ATTACH]

Regards,

Simon

The preconceptions seem to be all on your side, Simon. The building materials needn't have originally come from Buck's Row or Winthrop Street. How would 250ft by 60ft of stone paving have fitted into that small space?

Yards typically don't have numbers. Dutfields, for instance.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Steve,

Think of it this way.

The gates of Brown's Stable Yard opened inwards. This suggests they were locked/fastened from the inside.

If correct, how did Mr. Brown exit the yard?

Through the Winthrop Street entrance.

House of Commons Papers 1875 -

[ATTACH]18852[/ATTACH]

Regards,

Simon

But the door in Winthrop Street must also have opened inwards. How did Mr Brown ever get out? Perhaps he's still there.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mr. Barnett,

Brown's Stable Yard.

The trick is to find another yard in Bucks Row/Winthrop Street containing Stables, Coach Houses and Sheds.

And don't forget, all this material wasn't laying around like at Home Depot.

It constituted said Stables, Coach Houses and Sheds.

Whether or not the yard warranted a clock tower and a bell is something for us to investigate, not just dismiss because it doesn't suit any particular preconceptions. The Stores were on two floors.

The source for the address was in my original post, and is in the following attachment. You'll notice that the Yard doesn't feature an address in Bucks Row.



Regards,

Simon

[DJA]

I'm no builder, but that does sound like way too much material to be cleared from a small yard. Is there anything to link the auction to Brown's stable yard, except for the mention of stables? Isn't it more likely to be clearance of, for instance, the buildings occupying the land behind the Browne & Eagle warehouses, where Brady Buildings artizan dwellings were built in 1889?

The Browns seem to be linked to Essex Wharf.

Brickmakers,brickyard,builders,etc.

[MrBarnett]

Interestingly, one of Charles Lechmere's sons lived on tiny Winthrop Street. At the time he described himself as a 'meat salesman'.

[MrBarnett]

I'm no builder, but that does sound like way too much material to be cleared from a small yard. Is there anything to link the auction to Brown's stable yard, except for the mention of stables? Isn't it more likely to be clearance of, for instance, the buildings occupying the land behind the Browne & Eagle warehouses, where Brady Buildings artizan dwellings were built in 1889?

That's a possibility. And I think the fact that there was a building materials dealer at no.9 WS may be significant.

[Joshua Rogan]

I'm no builder, but that does sound like way too much material to be cleared from a small yard. Is there anything to link the auction to Brown's stable yard, except for the mention of stables? Isn't it more likely to be clearance of, for instance, the buildings occupying the land behind the Browne & Eagle warehouses, where Brady Buildings artizan dwellings were built in 1889?

[MrBarnett]

[ATTACH]18865[/ATTACH]

[MrBarnett]

The address of Mr. Brown's Stable Yard was 46 Winthrop Street [see Goad map]. This suggests there was a means of entrance to the stable yard at this address.

46 Winthrop Street is not listed in the 1891 Census [it ends with No. 44].

Also, 46 Winthrop Street does not appear in the 1888 Post Office Directory—

[ATTACH]18864[/ATTACH]

PO Directories were compiled in the preceding year, so it is possible that Mr. Brown [a] had gone out of business before 1888, or [b] didn't think the cost of an entry in the 1888 PO Directory was worth the candle.

By the time of the 7th January 1889 auction, the freehold had been sold, and the materials constituting the Stables, Coach Houses and sheds had been put up for sale.

At the time a 'square' was the unit of measure for flooring and roofing—100 sq. ft [10ft x 10ft]. On sale was 100 squares—10,000 sq. ft.

Also there were 40 'squares' of floor boards—4,000 sq. ft.

Also 50 rods of brickwork. A rod was about 4,500 bricks. This suggests that on auction in Mr. Browns Yard were 225,000 bricks.

There were also 150 'squares' of stone paving—15,000 sq. ft [250 x 60 ft].

It sounds as though these were the amounts of materials you would end up with after dismantling the stables, coach houses, sheds, and not forgetting a turret clock with three faces, a bell, tower and stable fittings.

What we need on Casebook is a builder to work out the possible construction of Mr. Brown's Stable Yard.

Simon, what's the source for the 46, WS address for Brown?

Look at the size of the site, do you really think it warranted a clock-tower and a bell? Why on earth would a tiny back-street stable yard need a clock tower and a bell? And would it have had 15,000 sq feet of paving?

[Simon Wood]

The address of Mr. Brown's Stable Yard was 46 Winthrop Street [see Goad map]. This suggests there was a means of entrance to the stable yard at this address.

46 Winthrop Street is not listed in the 1891 Census [it ends with No. 44].

Also, 46 Winthrop Street does not appear in the 1888 Post Office Directory—



PO Directories were compiled in the preceding year, so it is possible that Mr. Brown [a] had gone out of business before 1888, or [b] didn't think the cost of an entry in the 1888 PO Directory was worth the candle.

By the time of the 7th January 1889 auction, the freehold had been sold, and the materials constituting the Stables, Coach Houses and sheds had been put up for sale.

At the time a 'square' was the unit of measure for flooring and roofing—100 sq. ft [10ft x 10ft]. On sale was 100 squares—10,000 sq. ft.

Also there were 40 'squares' of floor boards—4,000 sq. ft.

Also 50 rods of brickwork. A rod was about 4,500 bricks. This suggests that on auction in Mr. Browns Yard were 225,000 bricks.

There were also 150 'squares' of stone paving—15,000 sq. ft [250 x 60 ft].

It sounds as though these were the amounts of materials you would end up with after dismantling the stables, coach houses, sheds, and not forgetting a turret clock with three faces, a bell, tower and stable fittings.

What we need on Casebook is a builder to work out the possible construction of Mr. Brown's Stable Yard.