What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed?

[jerryd]

They would be hard to find in the dark, but anyone could have gone in there and dumped it, it seems.

The basement was a maze consisting of many vaults. The workmen admitted it would be extremely hard for someone unfamiliar with the layout to find their way into the vault where the body and leg was found. It just happened to be the one vault they kept their tools in at night. There were other easier areas to dump the body rather than trying to find the way into that particular vault.

Have you seen the map of the basement?

It measured 128 ft by 168 ft.

Daily Telegraph Oct 3, 1888:

"When there, instead of throwing the body into the large open well dug to supply water, or secreting it beneath some of the countless heaps of soil and rubbish lying about, he conveyed it, almost fifty yards, through a network of partly underground passages to a remote corner of the building."

[Busy Beaver]

So we've been "horsing" around then for the past 130 years looking for a non-existent killer.

If looks like there is no entry from a main entrance, there may well have been a door within a door that opened. These were quite common in engineering and factory spaces so that the main door did not need to be wide open to the world and it enabled workers to come & go.

[Simon Wood]

Hi MrBarnett,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzbi1v14ciQ

Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Steve,

It's unsatisfactory when two completely opposing points of view cannot definitively prove their case.

As to JtR's existence, on your side you have no facts as to his identity. You have 130 years of belief and bitter disagreement, and during this time something in the order of 350 suspects have been exhumed. I think you'll agree this is something of a criminological record.

As to his non-existence, in my book I explored the JtR fake narrative. It evolved as needs changed, helped on its way by various theories from the police, press, spiritualists and members of the medical profession, and was employed in various innovative ways throughout and beyond the murders.

For instance, JtR was the premise behind the double-event, the Whitechapel house-to-house search, Millers Court, as a cover story for the bail-jumping Dr. Tumblety, and Scotland Yard’s adventures in North America. I could go on.

Jack was a handy sort of chap to have around.

When you start to notice that a 1929 book bears an uncanny resemblance to a story which first appeared in a 1901 Utah newspaper, both of which featured a doctor ending his days in Buenos Aires, or that there is a whiff of Billingsgate about about a detective's marginalia, or that if the blessed Sir Robert Anderson was correct about his Polish Jew then the Maybrick Diary must be a load of old tosh [or vice versa], or that the Metropolitan Police paid Michael Ostrog £10 as compensation for false imprisonment, you realise that the hunt for JtR is a zero-sum game.

But I still enjoy playing the game, and do have some revelations for the third edition of my book.

Regards,

Simon

[MrBarnett]

Photos? Photos?

What's that all about?

[packers stem]

Hi Simon,

of course I disagree with that obsevation, However it is refreshing to see the differences of opinion being displayed in a reasonable and polite manner.

I really am most intrigued by the ideas of yourself and Pakers Stem, two people i have a great deal of respect for, unfortunatly i just don't see the evidence, at this point, to make the case.


I await any future developments with a great deal interst.



Steve

Thanks Steve
And I echo those sentiments .
Always a pleasure

And yes , I know it would take something pretty damning to convince .

Eddowes (and son) could be key
As are a photo or two you're aware of

Here's hoping that your next project sheds some new light

Nick

[MrBarnett]

Not really Mr Barnett
Not anymore significant than Israel Schwartz who also lived down that way .
And I'm not aware that either had a link to the new Scotland yard building .
The only significant torso murder for me is Whitehall because of both the location and the difficulty in getting one there which stresses the value of the location and , of course , the timings .
I'm not a lover of coincidence to the degree that many ripperologists are so when an arm is discovered on Sept 11th and had been in the water for around three days (Chapman ) and a torso is discovered ,of the same victim ,after the weekend of two more murders my attention is alerted .

I think 'in the same street, a few yards away' beats 'down that way'.

[packers stem]

And then you might ask yourself whether there is any significance in the choice of location of the interface between the two series: Pinchin Street, where Charles Lechmere had lived with his policeman stepfather.

Not really Mr Barnett
Not anymore significant than Israel Schwartz who also lived down that way .
And I'm not aware that either had a link to the new Scotland yard building .
The only significant torso murder for me is Whitehall because of both the location and the difficulty in getting one there which stresses the value of the location and , of course , the timings .
I'm not a lover of coincidence to the degree that many ripperologists are so when an arm is discovered on Sept 11th and had been in the water for around three days (Chapman ) and a torso is discovered ,of the same victim ,after the weekend of two more murders my attention is alerted .

[MrBarnett]

Hi Simon,

of course I disagree with that obsevation, However it is refreshing to see the differences of opinion being displayed in a reasonable and polite manner.

I really am most intrigued by the ideas of yourself and Pakers Stem, two people i have a great deal of respect for, unfortunatly i just don't see the evidence, at this point, to make the case.


I await any future developments with a great deal interst.



Steve

As do I, Simon, especially if it involves knacker-folk.

[Elamarna]

Hi Batman,

You seem to be having no trouble signing up for the biggest conspiracy of all, namely that somebody known as Jack the Ripper was responsible for the deaths of five women.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

of course I disagree with that obsevation, However it is refreshing to see the differences of opinion being displayed in a reasonable and polite manner.

I really am most intrigued by the ideas of yourself and Pakers Stem, two people i have a great deal of respect for, unfortunatly i just don't see the evidence, at this point, to make the case.


I await any future developments with a great deal interst.



Steve

[MrBarnett]

JTR isn't that complex really but you will only spot things if you're looking from that angle .
Thinking 'outside the box' sums it up



I'd say the shock waves were widespread personally .... so much so that we're still discussing it 130 years later




Not quite
The arm in the thames has a piece of string tied around it .....it bled when the string was removed .
The aim was surely for this to happen .

The vault was not a good dumping ground for a single person carrying a torso , a leg , shovel , lamp ....
Clearly wasn't the work of one man ..... even if the leg was buried previously and he was only carrying a torso and lamp he still had to know how to get into the compound, drop the torso and lamp in the street while opening the gate then stumble there over gangplanks .
This happened
One man on his own and he could have dumped it anywhere off the back of a cart .....but no , great lengths went to for this location .
THAT'S where you should be asking why ....

And then you might ask yourself whether there is any significance in the choice of location of the interface between the two series: Pinchin Street, where Charles Lechmere had lived with his policeman stepfather.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Batman,

You seem to be having no trouble signing up for the biggest conspiracy of all, namely that somebody known as Jack the Ripper was responsible for the deaths of five women.

Regards,

Simon

[packers stem]

I often find though, that conspiracies are overly complex which is one of the reasons some are true and others are just conspiracy theories and these have quite a few problems and can be dismissed as unlikely. So how the conspiracy works, is really important when people suggest them

JTR isn't that complex really but you will only spot things if you're looking from that angle .
Thinking 'outside the box' sums it up

Okay, maximum effect. What does this mean exactly? Shock? Who was being shocked and why was the perpetrator doing that?

I'd say the shock waves were widespread personally .... so much so that we're still discussing it 130 years later

Body parts were dumped in the Thames in the hope they would wash out to sea. The New Scotland Yard building was still a construction site a 3 years away from being completed. The foundation was in place and some vaults. They would be hard to find in the dark, but anyone could have gone in there and dumped it, it seems.

Not quite
The arm in the thames has a piece of string tied around it .....it bled when the string was removed .
The aim was surely for this to happen .

The vault was not a good dumping ground for a single person carrying a torso , a leg , shovel , lamp ....
Clearly wasn't the work of one man ..... even if the leg was buried previously and he was only carrying a torso and lamp he still had to know how to get into the compound, drop the torso and lamp in the street while opening the gate then stumble there over gangplanks .
This happened
One man on his own and he could have dumped it anywhere off the back of a cart .....but no , great lengths went to for this location .
THAT'S where you should be asking why ....

[Batman]

You make it appear complex where it's not really .
The answer to all of your 'why's ' would be 'maximum effect '
Why was someone dumping body parts in the thames and at Pinchin street and as for risky the new Scotland yard building takes some beating and yet nobody suggests they were killed where found

I often find though, that conspiracies are overly complex which is one of the reasons some are true and others are just conspiracy theories and these have quite a few problems and can be dismissed as unlikely. So how the conspiracy works, is really important when people suggest them.

Okay, maximum effect. What does this mean exactly? Shock? Who was being shocked and why was the perpetrator doing that?

Body parts were dumped in the Thames in the hope they would wash out to sea. The New Scotland Yard building was still a construction site a 3 years away from being completed. The foundation was in place and some vaults. They would be hard to find in the dark, but anyone could have gone in there and dumped it, it seems.

[packers stem]

Why would someone be dumping their bodies around Whitechapel?

Why dump in Mitre Square?

Why take MJK's body back to her room?

Why dump a body in a backyard of Hanbury St?

How do you move a body with the head nearly severed and eviscerated and keep it all together?

Why pose them after dumping them?

Why take some of their organs, sometimes?

What I usually find with these lines of thinking is that the conspiracy becomes so complex that it makes no sense why the conspirators would do it at all when there are lots of alternatives less complex and not as risky.

You make it appear complex where it's not really .
The answer to all of your 'why's ' would be 'maximum effect '
Why was someone dumping body parts in the thames and at Pinchin street and as for risky the new Scotland yard building takes some beating and yet nobody suggests they were killed where found