Who was killed by Jack the Ripper?

[John Wheat]

Another reason to doubt Jack was a surgeon is the fact that it is rare for serial killers to murder out of there social class.

[GBinOz]

How do you know I'm wrong?

Because you are now resorting to claim that maybe Bury was secretly a butcher. Why limit your speculation? Perhaps this little drunken no hoper had actually studied to be a surgeon. If you are going to indulge in the fantasies, why limit yourself in his abilities. As Fernglas has more than adequately demonstrated, there is no way under heaven or earth that the likes of Bury could have achieved the medical procedures that were evident from the autopsy report. IF you wish to continue in your promotion of Bury, you will have to look at supporting Trevor in his hypothesis, which relieves Bury of any expertise and acknowledges him as just a rage killer lacking in any knowledge.

[John Wheat]

Because you are now resorting to claim that maybe Bury was secretly a butcher. Why limit your speculation? Perhaps this little drunken no hoper had actually studied to be a surgeon. If you are going to indulge in the fantasies, why limit yourself in his abilities. As Fernglas has more than adequately demonstrated, there is no way under heaven or earth that the likes of Bury could have achieved the medical procedures that were evident from the autopsy report. IF you wish to continue in your promotion of Bury, you will have to look at supporting Trevor in his hypothesis, which relieves Bury of any expertise and acknowledges him as just a rage killer lacking in any knowledge.

I never said Bury was secretly a butcher just that we haven't got a detailed work history for Bury. There is also some evidence that he was a cat meats butcher. Not that that would have meant he was skilled in anatomy. Bury is clearly the top Ripper suspect. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[John Wheat]

It's frankly ridiculous to discount suspects because they weren't a surgeon. There is no common consensus on wether the Ripper was an expert in anatomy and a surgeon would be from a different class to the C5 victims. Which is rare for a serial killer.

[Fernglas]

Hi Fernglas,

An excellent series of posts.

My father had a saying: "There are none so deaf as those who do not wish to hear". Combine that with your theory of "beloved" suspects and you will appreciate the opposition to your hypothesis. At some stage you just have to stop arguing with people and just let them be wrong.

Cheers, George

Hi and thank you , George!
Your Dad was absolutely right on this! Some dicussion members simply do not want to see, it is easier to pinch a taurus in it´s horns. Some truly sketchy theories, i could understand, but you do not need to be an expert to see that Mitre Square was only possible to do for someone with a fitting skill set, a rare one at that.

[Fernglas]

I never said Bury was secretly a butcher just that we haven't got a detailed work history for Bury. There is also some evidence that he was a cat meats butcher. Not that that would have meant he was skilled in anatomy. Bury is clearly the top Ripper suspect. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Hi!
I know that you like to do your shilly-shally in the discussions, but since you are so convinced that Bury is the top suspect: I already asked you once to tell us how this violent, drunken spitball of humanity Bury was, could have managed the Double Event and Mitre Square in special. Please tell us, I am really curious, how you explain the murder of Kati Eddowes with Bury as top suspect.

It's frankly ridiculous to discount suspects because they weren't a surgeon. There is no common consensus on wether the Ripper was an expert in anatomy and a surgeon would be from a different class to the C5 victims. Which is rare for a serial killer.

Sorry, but the only laughable thing in the discussion here is your flimsy try to turn the words of others in their mouths.
I always stated that the Ripper, given what happened at Mitre Square, conclusively must have had significant medical/surgical knowledge and skil. I also mentioned that we do not know how and where he gained this knowledge and experience, but he must have had it, otherwise the murder of Kati Eddowes could not have happened as it did. I never said he was a surgeon, but he had surgeon level comparable medical knowledge.

[John Wheat]

Hi!
I know that you like to do your shilly-shally in the discussions, but since you are so convinced that Bury is the top suspect: I already asked you once to tell us how this violent, drunken spitball of humanity Bury was, could have managed the Double Event and Mitre Square in special. Please tell us, I am really curious, how you explain the murder of Kati Eddowes with Bury as top suspect.

Sorry, but the only laughable thing in the discussion here is your flimsy try to turn the words of others in their mouths.
I always stated that the Ripper, given what happened at Mitre Square, conclusively must have had significant medical/surgical knowledge and skil. I also mentioned that we do not know how and where he gained this knowledge and experience, but he must have had it, otherwise the murder of Kati Eddowes could not have happened as it did. I never said he was a surgeon, but he had surgeon level comparable medical knowledge.

The idea that the butchery that was done to the C5 was done by a surgeon or someone with surgeon like skill is laughable. It wasn't done in a cold calculating manner it was butchery for the sake of it. May I ask are you an expert in surgery yourself because you are making out you are some sort of expert on surgical skill?

[John Wheat]

Because you are now resorting to claim that maybe Bury was secretly a butcher. Why limit your speculation? Perhaps this little drunken no hoper had actually studied to be a surgeon. If you are going to indulge in the fantasies, why limit yourself in his abilities. As Fernglas has more than adequately demonstrated, there is no way under heaven or earth that the likes of Bury could have achieved the medical procedures that were evident from the autopsy report. IF you wish to continue in your promotion of Bury, you will have to look at supporting Trevor in his hypothesis, which relieves Bury of any expertise and acknowledges him as just a rage killer lacking in any knowledge.

You might want to get basic things about Bury correct. Your recent Bury said he was squeamish being one of a number of mistakes you have made regarding Bury on the forums. If you can get basics like this wrong. Your likely to be wrong on other things regarding Bury and other Ripper related topics.

[John Wheat]

Hi!
I know that you like to do your shilly-shally in the discussions, but since you are so convinced that Bury is the top suspect: I already asked you once to tell us how this violent, drunken spitball of humanity Bury was, could have managed the Double Event and Mitre Square in special. Please tell us, I am really curious, how you explain the murder of Kati Eddowes with Bury as top suspect.

Sorry, but the only laughable thing in the discussion here is your flimsy try to turn the words of others in their mouths.
I always stated that the Ripper, given what happened at Mitre Square, conclusively must have had significant medical/surgical knowledge and skil. I also mentioned that we do not know how and where he gained this knowledge and experience, but he must have had it, otherwise the murder of Kati Eddowes could not have happened as it did. I never said he was a surgeon, but he had surgeon level comparable medical knowledge.

It's Catherine or Kate Eddowes and if it was Katie Eddowes it would be spelt Katie, or Katey Eddowes. I've never met anyone known as Katie who spelt it Kati. Bury was in all likelihood a functioning alcoholic. Meaning he was able to perform post mortem mutilation while intoxicated. It's likely the mutilation of Ellen Bury was performed while he was intoxicated.

[FrankO]

pardon, but Klosowski changing his M.O. is not a big deal here. The circumstances under which he could murder had changed, so his methods had to change as well. As I wrote above, slaughtering poor prostitutes few will miss in a lawless slum is one thing. If a murderer wants to kill women/wives, who have family, friends, social circles who could get suspicious, in middle class or better city quarters, the killing method has to change as well.
And Klosowski kept to his extreme sadism, dying by Antimon poisoning is a terrible way to go and Klosowski got off on watching them die.

Hi Fernglas,

I agree changing an M.O. would not be a big deal, but if Klosowski was the Ripper, then he did not only change his M.O., he, much more importantly, also changed that what gave him satisfaction by mutilating his 1888 victims. We can without much problem say that the Ripper risked his very neck by staying on the crime scenes mutilating his victims and, therefore, we might conclude (I do, at least) that this was what drove him, not his M.O.

So, if we're to believe that Klosowski was the Ripper, then we have to believe he'd found another driving force, another morbid fantasy to act out. And also one that was very different from his mutilation fantasy, where he killed quickly -little suffering on the victim's part - and then mutilated the female body. The poisoning, obviously, involved no physical or direct contact with his victims, it took a long time before they died, which Klosowski took pleasure from and not only that, he gained some money from it. A very differently wired type of serial killer, if you ask me.

The best,
Frank

[Fernglas]

The idea that the butchery that was done to the C5 was done by a surgeon or someone with surgeon like skill is laughable. It wasn't done in a cold calculating manner it was butchery for the sake of it. May I ask are you an expert in surgery yourself because you are making out you are some sort of expert on surgical skill?

Hi John!
Sorry to say it as crass as this, but those who read have advantage! Take a look at the post mortem reports, esp. those on the Mitre Square murder. THe whole mutilation part of the deed postdates the Kidney extraction done on KE, which was executed in near coursebook fashion. Doctor Brown from the City Police specifically states that the murderer must possess substantial medical knowledge and skill, because otherwise he could not have extracted the kidney in the way he he did!
The mutilation part was simply a bonus and misdirection for the Ripper.
In addition, once again, look at the circumstances! A near 1888 textbook kidney extraction done in near darkness, on the knees under time pressure to be finished before the police beat finds him. No crazed, savage mutilator is able to do this, he cannot because he lacks the skills and calmness to pull it off.

It's Catherine or Kate Eddowes and if it was Katie Eddowes it would be spelt Katie, or Katey Eddowes. I've never met anyone known as Katie who spelt it Kati.

That might be the case in English, but in German the most common short form of Catherine, Katarina, etc. is Kati, which would most probably be spoken
in English "Katee" with an "a" like in bath.

[John Wheat]

Hi John!
Sorry to say it as crass as this, but those who read have advantage! Take a look at the post mortem reports, esp. those on the Mitre Square murder. THe whole mutilation part of the deed postdates the Kidney extraction done on KE, which was executed in near coursebook fashion. Doctor Brown from the City Police specifically states that the murderer must possess substantial medical knowledge and skill, because otherwise he could not have extracted the kidney in the way he he did!
The mutilation part was simply a bonus and misdirection for the Ripper.
In addition, once again, look at the circumstances! A near 1888 textbook kidney extraction done in near darkness, on the knees under time pressure to be finished before the police beat finds him. No crazed, savage mutilator is able to do this, he cannot because he lacks the skills and calmness to pull it off.

That might be the case in English, but in German the most common short form of Catherine, Katarina, etc. is Kati, which would most probably be spoken
in English "Katee" with an "a" like in bath.

Your wrong on the medical knowledge and as Catherine Eddowes was English. It's Kate and would have been Katie I'm assuming your German though. I'm also assuming you don't have surgical knowledge yourself although you are talking as though you do.

[Lewis C]

Hi Fernglas,

I agree changing an M.O. would not be a big deal, but if Klosowski was the Ripper, then he did not only change his M.O., he, much more importantly, also changed that what gave him satisfaction by mutilating his 1888 victims. We can without much problem say that the Ripper risked his very neck by staying on the crime scenes mutilating his victims and, therefore, we might conclude (I do, at least) that this was what drove him, not his M.O.

So, if we're to believe that Klosowski was the Ripper, then we have to believe he'd found another driving force, another morbid fantasy to act out. And also one that was very different from his mutilation fantasy, where he killed quickly -little suffering on the victim's part - and then mutilated the female body. The poisoning, obviously, involved no physical or direct contact with his victims, it took a long time before they died, which Klosowski took pleasure from and not only that, he gained some money from it. A very differently wired type of serial killer, if you ask me.

The best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Those are good points, but I think that a similar argument could be made about James Kelly (and Deeming, for that matter). It appears to me that Kelly killed his wife because he was angry with her, so since I agree with you about what drove the Ripper, it appears to be different from what what drove Kelly to kill his wife.

[Fernglas]

The idea that the butchery that was done to the C5 was done by a surgeon or someone with surgeon like skill is laughable. It wasn't done in a cold calculating manner it was butchery for the sake of it. May I ask are you an expert in surgery yourself because you are making out you are some sort of expert on surgical skill?

Hi John!
Sorry to say it as crass as this, but those who read have advantage! Take a look at the post mortem reports, esp. those on the Mitre Square murder. THe whole mutilation part of the deed postdates the Kidney extraction done on KE, which was executed in near coursebook fashion. Doctor Brown from the City Police specifically states that the murderer must possess substantial medical knowledge and skill, because otherwise he could not have extracted the kidney in the way he he did!
The mutilation part was simply a bonus and misdirection for the Ripper.
In addition, once again, look at the circumstances! A near 1888 textbook kidney extraction done in near darkness, on the knees under time pressure to be finished before the police beat finds him. No crazed, savage mutilator is able to do this, he cannot because he lacks the skills and calmness to pull it off.

It's Catherine or Kate Eddowes and if it was Katie Eddowes it would be spelt Katie, or Katey Eddowes. I've never met anyone known as Katie who spelt it Kati.

That might be the case in English, but in German the most common short form of Catherine, Katarina, etc. is Kati, which would most probably be spoken
in English "Katee" with an "a" like in bath.

[The Baron]

Sorry to say it as crass as this, but those who read have advantage! Take a look at the post mortem reports, esp. those on the Mitre Square murder. THe whole mutilation part of the deed postdates the Kidney extraction done on KE, which was executed in near coursebook fashion. Doctor Brown from the City Police specifically states that the murderer must possess substantial medical knowledge and skill, because otherwise he could not have extracted the kidney in the way he he did!
The mutilation part was simply a bonus and misdirection for the Ripper.
In addition, once again, look at the circumstances! A near 1888 textbook kidney extraction done in near darkness, on the knees under time pressure to be finished before the police beat finds him. No crazed, savage mutilator is able to do this, he cannot because he lacks the skills and calmness to pull it off.

Spot on. The Mitre Square murder isn’t the work of some clumsy oaf, it’s a man who under insane pressure, in near darkness, performed a precise kidney extraction. That takes knowledge, control, and a steady hand.

And then we’re told, with a straight face, no less, that this surgical masterclass was done by William Bury? The same guy whose medical résumé begins and ends with strangling his wife and hacking her body in his flat like a drunk carpenter?

Come on. That’s not Jack the Ripper, that’s Jack the Ripper-off..

The difference is obvious: one man was cutting with purpose, the other was just slashing around like a blind butcher chasing flies. Pretending they’re the same person is like saying a toddler with crayons is secretly Rembrandt because hey, both use their hands.



The Baron