Who was killed by Jack the Ripper?

[c.d.]

Hi Lewis,

I agree on your take regarding Klosowski. While switching to poison might be unlikely it is not impossible. He simply can't be ruled out based on that one factor alone. And as you say, he has quite a few other things going for him.

By the way, I find myself agreeing with your take on things more and more. Keep up the good work!

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby and thank you,
I see the Double Event occuring very similar to your theory. The GSG I see two reasons for. One is yours, the Ripper was certainly pissed being interrupted and nearly caught at Berner Street. The second reason for the GSG I mentioned in a post to Herlock. JtR extracting Katiīs kidney the way he did, showed a skill level of him he did not want to show and he recognised it. So he mutilated KE more than usual (easy since he also had rising aggression), mutilations and gore always help distracting the public, but as we can see from the police records, the most severe mutilations were made after(!) he extracted the kidney. Doc Brown from the City Police mentioned that and that he could retrace the Ripperīs steps and implied doctors (of that era) would have done so very similarly.

As I wrote in an earlier post, you cannot fake yourself through a kidney surgery. A skilled person can conceal itīs skill level by making deliberately bad moves now and then, a person without skill cannot make enough good moves to conceal itīs lack of skill. The Mitre Square kidney extraction under miserable circumstances shows too much skill for it to be done by someone just cutting about. Put yourself in JtRīs shoes for a moment: could you have done this extraction in near darkness, on your knees and under time pressure? No chance in hell, unless you have some prior knowledge of what you want to do.
The Ripper does not need to have been a doctor, but however he gained his knowledge, Jack possessed an anatomical/medical knowledge well above the norm for both today and even more so 1888.

hi fern
thanks and i tend to agree. no way i could do it, for many reasons and im pretty avg. lol.

But in all seriousness, i think the ripper had prior experience in at least two of the following:

Use of knife in cutting up things
anatomy
medical
surgical

[Kunochan]

PM me your e-mail address. I'll see if I can dig them up and send them to you.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks!

[John Wheat]

I know the direction of argument you make, but it is a widespread fallacy that serial killers are unable to change methods. That was state of knowledge in the early days of criminal science on serial killers, but murderers like Keyes, Bundy, Kürten or a serial killer from France, whose name I do not remember off the cuff, make it clear that serial killers can change methods, sometimes drastically. Israel Keyes is the "poster boy" for a killer who killed in a lot of different ways and was only captured through chance and great luck. At least ten of his murders could only be placed with him due to his confessions with offenders knowledge.
A police officer said most of his murders they would never have solved otherwise, because they were so different from each other. Keyes prepared for each murder with care, varied his methods massively, placed lots of faked evidence, made sure there were no known connections between the victims, planned exactly, but was not fixed on a victim. If someone better "fitting" crossed his path, he/she became the victim instead the "preplanned" person.
As said, only pure chance and great luck saw him caught.
Keyes is an extreme example of a preplaner, but he is not the only serial killer able to change methods as needed. For our case, killing poor prostitutes without much family in the near lawless slum 1888 Whitechapel was, is a different thing from killing middle class (or higher) wives, who have family and social surroundings who might get suspicious quite fast.

The Serial Killers you mentioned varied methods throughout they didn't suddenly go from mutilation to poisoning.

[John Wheat]

Hi John,

When people argue against Klosowski as a Ripper, I rarely if ever hear any other reason besides this one. It's a fair argument, but if that's the only problem, when one also considers that he is known to have had medical knowledge (which the Ripper might not have had to have, but it wouldn't have hurt), he was Abberline's top suspect, he lived in the area at the time, is a known serial killer of women, and one of his wives said she once found a knife under his pillow, I think that on balance, there are very few better suspects in the case than him.

I never said that he wasn't one of the better suspects maybe he is. However I still find it unlikely he could go from doing what Jack did to poisoning. Also off the top of my head Bury and Kelly are much better suspects. Proven murderers and in Bury's case a post mortem mutilator. I don't put much stock in what Abberline said. People keep going on about who the Police named at the time but they didn't agree and didn't solve the Ripper or the Torso murders so they are not exactly infallible.

[Fernglas]

The Serial Killers you mentioned varied methods throughout they didn't suddenly go from mutilation to poisoning.

Hi John,

sorry, but you miss the main point here. The killers I named are just known examples of serial killers changing methods, sometimes drastically. That many serial killer never change their style has other reasons, but they all could change their killing methods, if they wanted too.
And what is also overlooked too often or disregarded: Klosowski had moved up the social ladder. Slaughtering poor, near forgotten prostitutes, who would be missed by few, in the practically lawless slum 1888 Whitechapel was, is one thing, killing women/wives, who have family, friends, social surroundings, in normal city quarters in the mid/late 1890s is a different one. A serial killer has to change his methods there or get caught right away.

Bury and Kelly better suspects? Thanks for the laugh! Sorry again, but those two are just suspects because of superficial similarities. Neither one had ever the chance to gain the anatomical/medical knowledge the Ripper must have possessed. If you give doctors, coroners, etc. today the reports about e.g. Mitre Square the verdict is clear. The perpetrator of the Mitre Square killing had substantial anatomical/medical knowledge, however he gained it. Many also comment on the considerable speed the Ripper showed.

Since KE was to be killed, the Ripper could have simply cut out the kidney any way he wanted, Kati was dying anyway. But JtR didnīt just cut it out. In near darkness, on his knees, under time pressure he followed the steps a 1888 doctor would also have taken. Even today the steps for kidney removal going in that way are not done much differently from that age.
The Ripper knew he ...ed up and tried to hide the skill he showed by more mutilations afterwards and the GSG.

[John Wheat]

Hi John,

sorry, but you miss the main point here. The killers I named are just known examples of serial killers changing methods, sometimes drastically. That many serial killer never change their style has other reasons, but they all could change their killing methods, if they wanted too.
And what is also overlooked too often or disregarded: Klosowski had moved up the social ladder. Slaughtering poor, near forgotten prostitutes, who would be missed by few, in the practically lawless slum 1888 Whitechapel was, is one thing, killing women/wives, who have family, friends, social surroundings, in normal city quarters in the mid/late 1890s is a different one. A serial killer has to change his methods there or get caught right away.

Bury and Kelly better suspects? Thanks for the laugh! Sorry again, but those two are just suspects because of superficial similarities. Neither one had ever the chance to gain the anatomical/medical knowledge the Ripper must have possessed. If you give doctors, coroners, etc. today the reports about e.g. Mitre Square the verdict is clear. The perpetrator of the Mitre Square killing had substantial anatomical/medical knowledge, however he gained it. Many also comment on the considerable speed the Ripper showed.

Since KE was to be killed, the Ripper could have simply cut out the kidney any way he wanted, Kati was dying anyway. But JtR didnīt just cut it out. In near darkness, on his knees, under time pressure he followed the steps a 1888 doctor would also have taken. Even today the steps for kidney removal going in that way are not done much differently from that age.
The Ripper knew he ...ed up and tried to hide the skill he showed by more mutilations afterwards and the GSG.

You are completely wrong. Chapman changing his M.O. is a big deal and the proven violent murderers Bury and Kelly are much better suspects than Chapman.

[Fernglas]

You are completely wrong. Chapman changing his M.O. is a big deal and the proven violent murderers Bury and Kelly are much better suspects than Chapman.

Hi John,

pardon, but Klosowski changing his M.O. is not a big deal here. The circumstances under which he could murder had changed, so his methods had to change as well. As I wrote above, slaughtering poor prostitutes few will miss in a lawless slum is one thing. If a murderer wants to kill women/wives, who have family, friends, social circles who could get suspicious, in middle class or better city quarters, the killing method has to change as well.
And Klosowski kept to his extreme sadism, dying by Antimon poisoning is a terrible way to go and Klosowski got off on watching them die.

Also sorry again, anytime a ripperlogist comes with violent, uneducated as... like Bury, Hyams, Kelly and Co. as suspects, the Ripper smiles in his part of Hell! Because his tries at concealment were successful.
There can be no doubt anymore today that the Ripper possessed substantial anatomical/medical knowledge, he was NOT an amateur. No matter how and where he gained it, JtR possessed these skills in an era where it was even more rare than today. As I wrote above, you cannot fake yourself through a kidney surgery and that surgery was what happened that night in Mitre Square.
Neither Bury nor Kelly had the chance to gain the needed knowledge and skills to pull off the Double event. Neither of the two could have succeeded at extracting KEīs kidney the way it was done. Not even in broad daylight and in a medical ward. They simply did not possess the necessary skills.

[John Wheat]

Hi John,

pardon, but Klosowski changing his M.O. is not a big deal here. The circumstances under which he could murder had changed, so his methods had to change as well. As I wrote above, slaughtering poor prostitutes few will miss in a lawless slum is one thing. If a murderer wants to kill women/wives, who have family, friends, social circles who could get suspicious, in middle class or better city quarters, the killing method has to change as well.
And Klosowski kept to his extreme sadism, dying by Antimon poisoning is a terrible way to go and Klosowski got off on watching them die.

Also sorry again, anytime a ripperlogist comes with violent, uneducated as... like Bury, Hyams, Kelly and Co. as suspects, the Ripper smiles in his part of Hell! Because his tries at concealment were successful.
There can be no doubt anymore today that the Ripper possessed substantial anatomical/medical knowledge, he was NOT an amateur. No matter how and where he gained it, JtR possessed these skills in an era where it was even more rare than today. As I wrote above, you cannot fake yourself through a kidney surgery and that surgery was what happened that night in Mitre Square.
Neither Bury nor Kelly had the chance to gain the needed knowledge and skills to pull off the Double event. Neither of the two could have succeeded at extracting KEīs kidney the way it was done. Not even in broad daylight and in a medical ward. They simply did not possess the necessary skills.

It is a big deal and a big minus point and you are wrong about Bury and Kelly. Also I don't think Jack necessarily had to have anatomical knowledge but certainly Bury may have at one point worked as a butcher. Not enough is known about Bury's life to be sure he was never a butcher. At the time it wasn't agreed upon the level of anatomical or medical knowledge the Ripper possessed and it's the same today.

[c.d.]

I think Klosowski's change of M.O. needs a bit of perspective. A couple of points:

Unlikely or improbable is not the same as impossible;

The database of serial killers is small and only contains the ones we know about. Too small to make hard and fast rules about what a serial killer will or will not do. They are serial killers not bank robbers;

Changing from knife slashing to poisoning does not get you kicked out of the serial killer's union;

Changing from knife slashing to poisoning does not violate any known law of physics like traveling faster that the speed of light.

In conclusion, I see no need to fixate on that one point especially as he has other things going for him as a candidate. If people want to take him down a few rungs so be it but elimination altogether seems to be really pushing it.

Just my opinion.

c.d.

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis,

I agree on your take regarding Klosowski. While switching to poison might be unlikely it is not impossible. He simply can't be ruled out based on that one factor alone. And as you say, he has quite a few other things going for him.

By the way, I find myself agreeing with your take on things more and more. Keep up the good work!

c.d.

Thanks, c.d.!

[John Wheat]

I think Klosowski's change of M.O. needs a bit of perspective. A couple of points:

Unlikely or improbable is not the same as impossible;

The database of serial killers is small and only contains the ones we know about. Too small to make hard and fast rules about what a serial killer will or will not do. They are serial killers not bank robbers;

Changing from knife slashing to poisoning does not get you kicked out of the serial killer's union;

Changing from knife slashing to poisoning does not violate any known law of physics like traveling faster that the speed of light.

In conclusion, I see no need to fixate on that one point especially as he has other things going for him as a candidate. If people want to take him down a few rungs so be it but elimination altogether seems to be really pushing it.

Just my opinion.

c.d.

I see your point c.d. but we have candidates with much more similar M.O.'s eg Bury and Kelly who in my opinion are better suspects than Klosowski largely for this reason.

[Fernglas]

It is a big deal and a big minus point and you are wrong about Bury and Kelly. Also I don't think Jack necessarily had to have anatomical knowledge but certainly Bury may have at one point worked as a butcher. Not enough is known about Bury's life to be sure he was never a butcher. At the time it wasn't agreed upon the level of anatomical or medical knowledge the Ripper possessed and it's the same today.

We should agree to disagree on Klosowski, because I gave you examples of killers changing their methods and as c.d. so nicely said, "Changing from knife slashing to poisoning does not violate any known law of physics".
That serial killers cannot change their M.O. is outdated knowledge. That came to be because the first serial killers captured usually were those with the killing methods entwined with the reasons they killed, so these could not really change and were caught because of it. But over time more and more serial killers became known who could and would change their M.O. depending on the circumstances.

As for the Ripperīs medical and surgical skill level: Today the scales are rapidly filling up on the side of substantial medical and surgical skill. That for so long this was debated was only because several "beloved" main suspects would have been out for decades already. And you know how humans can be when their beloved theories are under attack.
Once again, look at the situation. The Ripper is on his knees beside dying Kati, in near total darkness, under time pressure to be finished before the next Bobby shows up. Since Kati would die no matter what, the Ripper could have slashed and cut his way into her body, irrespective of the mess and damage done and taken the kidney. But that did not happen! The Ripper went into the body like a surgeon of 1888 would do, even today the procedure going in from the front is done with only small differences due to new knowledge over time.
Doc Brown from the City Police could retrace JtRīs steps and would have operated very similar to get to a kidney. He mentioned it specifically that he believed the killer having significant medical knowledge and experience in removing organs. We have to remember, that was 1888, anatomical and medical knowledge was even rarer than it is today. Give the reports of Mitre Square to a modern doctor and he will tell you the same as Doctor Brown. Most will also mention the Ripperīs speed and remarkable precision under the miserable circumstances that night.
However he gained the knowledge and experience, Jack was not an amateur. As I said, a skilled person can try to conceal her skill by making deliberate bad moves now and then, like the Ripper did with Annie. But a person without skill cannot make enough good moves to conceal their lack of skill. Whoever killed Kati had medical/anatomical knowledge and experience, otherwise Mitre Square as it happened could not have been. And the ripper recognised at the tail end of the kidney extraction that he gave off too much info about his skill set. So he tried to hide it with severe post-mortem mutilations to misdirect the attention and penned the GSG.

Now for our two violent, uneducated suspects Bury and Kelly, whose crimes show their lack of composure the Ripper needed to pull Mitre Square off before the police found him. Please tell me, I am really curious, how these two disturbed hacks could have pulled off Mitre Square.

[GBinOz]

We should agree to disagree on Klosowski, because I gave you examples of killers changing their methods and as c.d. so nicely said, "Changing from knife slashing to poisoning does not violate any known law of physics".
That serial killers cannot change their M.O. is outdated knowledge. That came to be because the first serial killers captured usually were those with the killing methods entwined with the reasons they killed, so these could not really change and were caught because of it. But over time more and more serial killers became known who could and would change their M.O. depending on the circumstances.

As for the Ripperīs medical and surgical skill level: Today the scales are rapidly filling up on the side of substantial medical and surgical skill. That for so long this was debated was only because several "beloved" main suspects would have been out for decades already. And you know how humans can be when their beloved theories are under attack.
Once again, look at the situation. The Ripper is on his knees beside dying Kati, in near total darkness, under time pressure to be finished before the next Bobby shows up. Since Kati would die no matter what, the Ripper could have slashed and cut his way into her body, irrespective of the mess and damage done and taken the kidney. But that did not happen! The Ripper went into the body like a surgeon of 1888 would do, even today the procedure going in from the front is done with only small differences due to new knowledge over time.
Doc Brown from the City Police could retrace JtRīs steps and would have operated very similar to get to a kidney. He mentioned it specifically that he believed the killer having significant medical knowledge and experience in removing organs. We have to remember, that was 1888, anatomical and medical knowledge was even rarer than it is today. Give the reports of Mitre Square to a modern doctor and he will tell you the same as Doctor Brown. Most will also mention the Ripperīs speed and remarkable precision under the miserable circumstances that night.
However he gained the knowledge and experience, Jack was not an amateur. As I said, a skilled person can try to conceal her skill by making deliberate bad moves now and then, like the Ripper did with Annie. But a person without skill cannot make enough good moves to conceal their lack of skill. Whoever killed Kati had medical/anatomical knowledge and experience, otherwise Mitre Square as it happened could not have been. And the ripper recognised at the tail end of the kidney extraction that he gave off too much info about his skill set. So he tried to hide it with severe post-mortem mutilations to misdirect the attention and penned the GSG.

Now for our two violent, uneducated suspects Bury and Kelly, whose crimes show their lack of composure the Ripper needed to pull Mitre Square off before the police found him. Please tell me, I am really curious, how these two disturbed hacks could have pulled off Mitre Square.

Hi Fernglas,

An excellent series of posts.

My father had a saying: "There are none so deaf as those who do not wish to hear". Combine that with your theory of "beloved" suspects and you will appreciate the opposition to your hypothesis. At some stage you just have to stop arguing with people and just let them be wrong.

Cheers, George

[John Wheat]

Hi Fernglas,

An excellent series of posts.

My father had a saying: "There are none so deaf as those who do not wish to hear". Combine that with your theory of "beloved" suspects and you will appreciate the opposition to your hypothesis. At some stage you just have to stop arguing with people and just let them be wrong.

Cheers, George

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