Who was killed by Jack the Ripper?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Snap! I always felt we were on the same wavelength, Herlock

Cheers Sam. It’s always good to know when an opinion of mine concurs with yours. I’ve waivered for years on Stride but I have to now come down on the side that I don’t think that she was a victim based on the location. I just can’t see the ripper choosing that spot thinking that it was safe to spend the kind of time that he must have spent with Eddowes. A few feet either side an open gate onto the street and a partially open club door, the sounds of members upstairs and realising that it must have been around the time that they would be heading home. Also, there was an outside loo.

[Fiver]

Hi Marcel,

My favoured choice isn't in the poll, but if I had to choose I'd go with: Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, Kelly, Millwood, Wilson and Tabram. And I always think there's a good chance that a failed attempt of his was mentioned in the Lloyd's of 30 September:

"Last night a correspondent furnished us with another strange story of an incident occurring early on Thursday morning, near to the scene of the four murders. He states that early in the morning a woman was sitting sleeping on some steps in one of the houses in Dorset-street, when she was awoke by a man who asked her whether she had any bed to go to, or any money to pay for a lodging. She replied that she had not, upon which he said he had money, and then gave her what she thought was two half-sovereigns. She went with him down a passage, and when there he seized her by the throat and tried to strangle her. A scuffle ensued between them, in which she screamed and got away. The next morning she found that what he gave her was two farthings machined round the edge like gold coins. She described him as being a man with a dark moustache, and dressed in a rough frieze blue overcoat."



Cheers,
Frank

That does sound like a possible survivor. It does appear that some of Ripper victims were drunk or ill, so a woman who was neither would be more likely to escape.

[Fiver]

Cheers Sam. It’s always good to know when an opinion of mine concurs with yours. I’ve waivered for years on Stride but I have to now come down on the side that I don’t think that she was a victim based on the location. I just can’t see the ripper choosing that spot thinking that it was safe to spend the kind of time that he must have spent with Eddowes. A few feet either side an open gate onto the street and a partially open club door, the sounds of members upstairs and realising that it must have been around the time that they would be heading home. Also, there was an outside loo.

If the Ripper killed Stride, then he might have ducked into the loo when he heard Diemschutz' cart approaching. And there were night watchmen awake and not far away for the Nichols and Eddowes killing, though, of course, the Ripper may not have known that.

For me, the key is Schwartz' statements. I believe his statements, since they make him look bad - running off and leaving Stride to her fate. If Broadshouldered Man killed Stride, then his actions don't mesh well with the Ripper's MO. OTOH, I can't rule out the Ripper, playing white knight, scaring off BS man, and then being interrupted by Diemschutz.

[The Rookie Detective]

I think the inclusion or exclusion of Stride hinges on whether the Dear Boss, Saucy Jack etc... correspondences are to be believed as authentic or whether they are hoaxes.

If the Dear Boss letter is genuine, then Saucy Jack follows that sequence.

The talk of a "double event" can then be linked to the murders of Stride and Eddowes.

The reference in Saucy Jack that states "number one squealed a bit couldn't finish straight off" is in regards to Stride.
The author implies that Stride resisted by making some audible sound that impacted on his intention of a quick dispatch of his victim.
The author then says they "Had not time to get ears off for Police..."
This would support the idea that the killer was rushed and then realised he had to leave the scene quicker than he had intended to.
And so when we look at the earlier correspondence...
Dear Boss letter had previously stated...
"The next job I do I shall clip the ladys ear off and send to police officers..."

So IF these correspondences are indeed authentic and written by the Ripper, then it practically affirms that Stride was a partially botched murder and the killer didn't have time to do what he set out to do to Stride.

Perhaps he wasn't interrupted as such, but rather he became aware of time and that he risked being captured.
That then denotes a degree of awareness and intelligence that may then go some way to rule some of the suspects out.



Of course, all that said, If the likes of Dear Boss and Saucy Jack are fake, then it greatly reduces the likelihood that Stride was a Ripper victim.

What's interesting about the Dear Boss letter, is that it's essentially; the bridge between Chapman and Stride.

And crucially, the talk of a double event is only mentioned in Saucy Jack.

That suggests that the double event spoken about in Saucy Jack wasn't planned.

The Ripper planned on killing Stride, but she resisted, made some noise that meant the Ripper couldn't silence her quick enough. This then caused the Ripper to lose time and so he then fled towards his home.
But on the way he finds Eddowes and chooses her as another victim. I.e If the Ripper had the time to mutilate Stride, then Eddowes would not have been murdered.


But again, that's all based on the authenticity of Dear Boss and Saucy Jack.

However; if they're fake, then I believe that it's unlikely that Stride was a Ripper victim.


50/50

[c.d.]

Cheers Sam. It’s always good to know when an opinion of mine concurs with yours. I’ve waivered for years on Stride but I have to now come down on the side that I don’t think that she was a victim based on the location. I just can’t see the ripper choosing that spot thinking that it was safe to spend the kind of time that he must have spent with Eddowes. A few feet either side an open gate onto the street and a partially open club door, the sounds of members upstairs and realising that it must have been around the time that they would be heading home. Also, there was an outside loo.

Hello Herlock,

As has been pointed out before, somebody was willing to take that risk in killing Stride.

As to the question of was it Jack that killed her, why are you giving a serial killer the mindset of a bank robber coolly and rationally examining the location and its inherent risks? If he made up his mind that Stride was the one he wanted to kill then location and risks be damned.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock,

As has been pointed out before, somebody was willing to take that risk in killing Stride.

As to the question of was it Jack that killed her, why are you giving a serial killer the mindset of a bank robber coolly and rationally examining the location and its inherent risks? If he made up his mind that Stride was the one he wanted to kill then location and risks be damned.

c.d.

Hello c.d.

I agree that there is always going to be risk involved but it’s still the case that the killer remained at large. Luck probably played a part but I tend to think that a level of cunning did too. All of the locations held risks but to me Dutfield’s Yard was almost Piccadilly Circus compared to the rest. I’d say that the killer accepted some risk but I don’t see him as impervious to it. I could certainly be wrong though.

[Fernglas]

Cheers Sam. It’s always good to know when an opinion of mine concurs with yours. I’ve waivered for years on Stride but I have to now come down on the side that I don’t think that she was a victim based on the location. I just can’t see the ripper choosing that spot thinking that it was safe to spend the kind of time that he must have spent with Eddowes. A few feet either side an open gate onto the street and a partially open club door, the sounds of members upstairs and realising that it must have been around the time that they would be heading home. Also, there was an outside loo.

Hallo Herlock!
I see your points and I am unsure about Stride as well, but I think it more likely she is a Ripper victim than not. For a non-ripper murderer of Stride we need quite a couple of coincidences.
Even back in 1888 throat cutting was not the most common murder method. For Stride/Eddowes to be unrelated murders, we would need two murderer using a rare killing method, out on the prowl in the same evening/night, around the same timeframe, in the same rather small neighbourhood. Possible, but not likely.
In addition, the Ripper was a deeply disturbed being, but he was not dumb. His murders show a battle between his drive to kill, unable to reign it in all that long when the "ideal victim" pops up and his brains trying not to get captured.
KE is a prime example. What some members push away far too quickly, the frenzied stabbing postdates(!) the kidney extraction. The Ripper made a near 1888 textbook kidney extraction, not slashing/cutting about (what he could also have done since murder was his intent) until he has it, and this in abomiable circumstances. Not a nice medical ward, but on his knees, in near darkness under time pressure. That is skill, you cannot fake yourself through a kidney extraction without it.
JtR recognised afterwards with clearing head that he ...ed up and needed to obfuscate the situation. He added more mutilations (always good for luring away prying eyes) after the murder operation and cooked up the GSG, which nicely caught the focus and away from the skill set of JtR.

And back to Liz, I think JTR´s brain was aware of the risk, but his drive to kill overpowered his reason. But he was in command enough to break off when it got too hot. Even if nearly too late, under slightly different circumstances, the Ripper would have been caught.

[Tel]

IMO there are two issues with Kelly, either of which would account for her horrific mutiliations. Either it was because it was the killer of the C3 who just had more time being indoors or this was somebody who MJK knew. Disfigurement mutilation murders tend to be committed by someone known / close to the victim. (see the murder of Jade Marsh by her ex-husband). But I have nothing that points me in either specific direction.

All IMHO of course. I have no better idea than the next man or woman!

I agree in so far as Kelly was a 'private' killing, perhaps by someone who was trying to mimic the circulating stories of the earlier killings. We all know what the rumour mill is like, exaggeration builds on exaggeration, until the stories bear little in common with the actual event.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hallo Herlock!
I see your points and I am unsure about Stride as well, but I think it more likely she is a Ripper victim than not. For a non-ripper murderer of Stride we need quite a couple of coincidences.
Even back in 1888 throat cutting was not the most common murder method. For Stride/Eddowes to be unrelated murders, we would need two murderer using a rare killing method, out on the prowl in the same evening/night, around the same timeframe, in the same rather small neighbourhood. Possible, but not likely.
In addition, the Ripper was a deeply disturbed being, but he was not dumb. His murders show a battle between his drive to kill, unable to reign it in all that long when the "ideal victim" pops up and his brains trying not to get captured.
KE is a prime example. What some members push away far too quickly, the frenzied stabbing postdates(!) the kidney extraction. The Ripper made a near 1888 textbook kidney extraction, not slashing/cutting about (what he could also have done since murder was his intent) until he has it, and this in abomiable circumstances. Not a nice medical ward, but on his knees, in near darkness under time pressure. That is skill, you cannot fake yourself through a kidney extraction without it.
JtR recognised afterwards with clearing head that he ...ed up and needed to obfuscate the situation. He added more mutilations (always good for luring away prying eyes) after the murder operation and cooked up the GSG, which nicely caught the focus and away from the skill set of JtR.

And back to Liz, I think JTR´s brain was aware of the risk, but his drive to kill overpowered his reason. But he was in command enough to break off when it got too hot. Even if nearly too late, under slightly different circumstances, the Ripper would have been caught.

Hi Fernglass,

I certainly wouldn’t ignore the possibility that she was a Ripper victim. For most of my years of interest in the case I’ve favoured (slightly) that she was but, rightly or wrongly, I struggle to get the location out of my mind. Over the years I’ve written jokingly about ‘Herlock’s Maxim’s’ (mimicking Holmes) and I have this one:

Herlock’s Maxim No 3 - “We shouldn’t assume that a serial killer would think or behave as we might, in order to prove or disprove a theory.”

And although I haven’t arrived at my opinion to support or disprove a theory it’s still possible that I’m thinking too much about how ‘i’ might have thought in that situation even though you have my word that I’m not a serial killer. It’s still my opinion though that, although the killer would have accepted a level of risk as ‘par-for-the-course’ and he might even have got a kick from it, I can’t see him having so little self-control that he was impervious to risk and that location has so many points that would stand out as massively risk especially if he intended to spend a few minutes with the corpse. I certainly could be wrong though Fernglass. I’ve been wrong before….June 4th 1983 it was

[FrankO]

For a non-ripper murderer of Stride we need quite a couple of coincidences.
Even back in 1888 throat cutting was not the most common murder method. For Stride/Eddowes to be unrelated murders, we would need two murderer using a rare killing method, out on the prowl in the same evening/night, around the same timeframe, in the same rather small neighbourhood. Possible, but not likely.

Hi Fernglas,

This is what those who believe Stride was a Ripper victim don’t seem to get or look past. What they don’t seem to consider are the circumstances under which and how she was killed. Or they attach (much) less importance to it than to what you say above. At the hour she was killed, there were very clearly still many people up & about, either in the club or at their doorsteps, passing through the street, getting their supper. I assume this would also have been clear to the Ripper, if it was him. What’s also clear (to me, anyway), is that Stride wasn’t attacked the same way as the others, who were first rendered unconscious somehow, then lowered to the ground and very likely on their backs – that being the best position for the mutilations; Stride, instead, was attacked in such a way that she ended up on her left side on the ground. The bow of the scarf around was turned to the left side and pulled very tight, suggesting that the killer had taken hold of it from behind to pull her backwards.

And back to Liz, I think JTR´s brain was aware of the risk, but his drive to kill overpowered his reason. But he was in command enough to break off when it got too hot. Even if nearly too late, under slightly different circumstances, the Ripper would have been caught.

If it was the Ripper who killed her, then I think he was broke off before he even begun, i.e. right after cutting her throat. Either that or he realised there was no opportunity to mutilate and decided to just cut her throat anyway. Had he been actually interupted, I’d have expected Stride to be lying on her back, with maybe her legs spread and her skirts thrown up, but she was found lying on her side.

Just my opinion, of course.

Cheers,
Frank

[Fernglas]

Hi Fernglass,

I certainly wouldn’t ignore the possibility that she was a Ripper victim. For most of my years of interest in the case I’ve favoured (slightly) that she was but, rightly or wrongly, I struggle to get the location out of my mind. Over the years I’ve written jokingly about ‘Herlock’s Maxim’s’ (mimicking Holmes) and I have this one:

Herlock’s Maxim No 3 - “We shouldn’t assume that a serial killer would think or behave as we might, in order to prove or disprove a theory.”

And although I haven’t arrived at my opinion to support or disprove a theory it’s still possible that I’m thinking too much about how ‘i’ might have thought in that situation even though you have my word that I’m not a serial killer. It’s still my opinion though that, although the killer would have accepted a level of risk as ‘par-for-the-course’ and he might even have got a kick from it, I can’t see him having so little self-control that he was impervious to risk and that location has so many points that would stand out as massively risk especially if he intended to spend a few minutes with the corpse. I certainly could be wrong though Fernglass. I’ve been wrong before….June 4th 1983 it was

Hi Herlock!

I truly see your point and maxim! As I said, I too have some doubts about the Stride case and like you, I would not have done it had I been in Jack´s place back then either. But god be blessed we are just two normal guys. Luckily we both never were him, because even with what few things are known about him, JtR scored very high on some tests and assessments, proving what a frightingly disturbed being he was. The disturbed is with a capital D additionally.
The reason I lean more towards the "Double Event" being a real one are twofold. One is the thing I already mentioned, having two similar working, rare type murderer out on the same evening, timeframe and city quarter is challenging chance. Possible? Yes. Likely? Not really.

The other reason is what we know about him and his heinious deeds. The, I call him the "frühe"(early), JtR was a risktaker, be it that he got a kick from it or felt invincible, whatever. From (most probably) Tabram to Stride he escalated his brutality, callousness and willingness to take more risks. Tabram shows an insecure "beginner at work", in Hanbury Street the Ripper already took a high risk approach and execution to murder Annie Chapman.
But he was capable of learning from his mistakes quickly too. The Stride murder was the turning point, a wake up call. Being nearly caught made him more cautious. The "späte" (later) JtR was even more callous, but also more careful when it came to risks. See KE and MJK. A dark, nearly deserted, out of way little square and the flat of the victim. No more long alleys, gardens and pub areas.

[Abby Normal]

Hallo Herlock!
I see your points and I am unsure about Stride as well, but I think it more likely she is a Ripper victim than not. For a non-ripper murderer of Stride we need quite a couple of coincidences.
Even back in 1888 throat cutting was not the most common murder method. For Stride/Eddowes to be unrelated murders, we would need two murderer using a rare killing method, out on the prowl in the same evening/night, around the same timeframe, in the same rather small neighbourhood. Possible, but not likely.
In addition, the Ripper was a deeply disturbed being, but he was not dumb. His murders show a battle between his drive to kill, unable to reign it in all that long when the "ideal victim" pops up and his brains trying not to get captured.
KE is a prime example. What some members push away far too quickly, the frenzied stabbing postdates(!) the kidney extraction. The Ripper made a near 1888 textbook kidney extraction, not slashing/cutting about (what he could also have done since murder was his intent) until he has it, and this in abomiable circumstances. Not a nice medical ward, but on his knees, in near darkness under time pressure. That is skill, you cannot fake yourself through a kidney extraction without it.
JtR recognised afterwards with clearing head that he ...ed up and needed to obfuscate the situation. He added more mutilations (always good for luring away prying eyes) after the murder operation and cooked up the GSG, which nicely caught the focus and away from the skill set of JtR.

And back to Liz, I think JTR´s brain was aware of the risk, but his drive to kill overpowered his reason. But he was in command enough to break off when it got too hot. Even if nearly too late, under slightly different circumstances, the Ripper would have been caught.

hi fern
i totally agree with your point about the unlikely chance that two throat cutting prostitute killers were operating at basically the same time and place. and the final straw for me is that most of the reliable witnesses at both the stride and eddowes murders all describe a suspect who was wearing a peaked cap. the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night and after being interupted before he could finish with stride he left and went on to find eddowes. and yes he wrote the gsg, maybe because he was pissed off from being interrupted by a bunch of jews that night.

[Tom_Wescott]

I voted C4, but I think Tabram was also a victim of the killer of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and "Kelly" (I don't think the victim in that case was actually Kelly).

This quota idea is very interesting to me. Tom, do you know how I can find any of these academic papers? I'd love to look at them. Thanks!

PM me your e-mail address. I'll see if I can dig them up and send them to you.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Cheers Sam. It’s always good to know when an opinion of mine concurs with yours. I’ve waivered for years on Stride but I have to now come down on the side that I don’t think that she was a victim based on the location. I just can’t see the ripper choosing that spot thinking that it was safe to spend the kind of time that he must have spent with Eddowes. A few feet either side an open gate onto the street and a partially open club door, the sounds of members upstairs and realising that it must have been around the time that they would be heading home. Also, there was an outside loo.

Just a few points. Stride was killed inside a stable gate. Nichols was killed outside an identical stable gate. Stride was quietly subdued to unconsciousness, laid down, and killed with a single cut to the throat. Her death occurred approximately 35 minutes before that of Kate Eddowes. Both happened to have occurred at an earlier hour than other Ripper crimes. Both occurred just outside the reach of where the police were saturating the streets. The victimology of Stride and Eddowes is identical, down to both women living on the same street. If Stride were a copycat murder we might expect it to have been more awkward and much sloppier, with signs of a struggle. There were no such signs. Her killer was extraordinarily brazen and confident. One of the more popular sayings among homicide detectives is 'there are no coincidences in murder'. Of course, no such rule can be all encompassing, but there's no compelling reason here to suggest such a fantastic coincidence. Even down to the cachous in Stride's hand and the thimble just off Eddowes' hand, the circumstances are too similar for the crimes not to be connected.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[kjab3112]

Hi Marcel,

My favoured choice isn't in the poll, but if I had to choose I'd go with: Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, Kelly, Millwood, Wilson and Tabram. And I always think there's a good chance that a failed attempt of his was mentioned in the Lloyd's of 30 September:

"Last night a correspondent furnished us with another strange story of an incident occurring early on Thursday morning, near to the scene of the four murders. He states that early in the morning a woman was sitting sleeping on some steps in one of the houses in Dorset-street, when she was awoke by a man who asked her whether she had any bed to go to, or any money to pay for a lodging. She replied that she had not, upon which he said he had money, and then gave her what she thought was two half-sovereigns. She went with him down a passage, and when there he seized her by the throat and tried to strangle her. A scuffle ensued between them, in which she screamed and got away. The next morning she found that what he gave her was two farthings machined round the edge like gold coins. She described him as being a man with a dark moustache, and dressed in a rough frieze blue overcoat."



Cheers,
Frank

Although I suspect hearsay and rumour, this would be a very likely scenario especially if Hutch is to be believed. 2 sovereigns would’ve cleared MJKs rent debt - “you’ll be comfortable” could’ve been her old high end brothel ways coming through. Four of the canonical five were desperate for cash and the one who was witnessed to say no was Stride with a simple strangulation and throat cut. The description is also similar to Schwartz and Lawende but obviously would also cover many men at the time.

Paul