Who was killed by Jack the Ripper?

[c.d.]

Hi Lewis,

I agree on your take regarding Klosowski. While switching to poison might be unlikely it is not impossible. He simply can't be ruled out based on that one factor alone. And as you say, he has quite a few other things going for him.

By the way, I find myself agreeing with your take on things more and more. Keep up the good work!

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby and thank you,
I see the Double Event occuring very similar to your theory. The GSG I see two reasons for. One is yours, the Ripper was certainly pissed being interrupted and nearly caught at Berner Street. The second reason for the GSG I mentioned in a post to Herlock. JtR extracting Katiīs kidney the way he did, showed a skill level of him he did not want to show and he recognised it. So he mutilated KE more than usual (easy since he also had rising aggression), mutilations and gore always help distracting the public, but as we can see from the police records, the most severe mutilations were made after(!) he extracted the kidney. Doc Brown from the City Police mentioned that and that he could retrace the Ripperīs steps and implied doctors (of that era) would have done so very similarly.

As I wrote in an earlier post, you cannot fake yourself through a kidney surgery. A skilled person can conceal itīs skill level by making deliberately bad moves now and then, a person without skill cannot make enough good moves to conceal itīs lack of skill. The Mitre Square kidney extraction under miserable circumstances shows too much skill for it to be done by someone just cutting about. Put yourself in JtRīs shoes for a moment: could you have done this extraction in near darkness, on your knees and under time pressure? No chance in hell, unless you have some prior knowledge of what you want to do.
The Ripper does not need to have been a doctor, but however he gained his knowledge, Jack possessed an anatomical/medical knowledge well above the norm for both today and even more so 1888.

hi fern
thanks and i tend to agree. no way i could do it, for many reasons and im pretty avg. lol.

But in all seriousness, i think the ripper had prior experience in at least two of the following:

Use of knife in cutting up things
anatomy
medical
surgical

[Kunochan]

PM me your e-mail address. I'll see if I can dig them up and send them to you.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks!

[John Wheat]

I know the direction of argument you make, but it is a widespread fallacy that serial killers are unable to change methods. That was state of knowledge in the early days of criminal science on serial killers, but murderers like Keyes, Bundy, Kürten or a serial killer from France, whose name I do not remember off the cuff, make it clear that serial killers can change methods, sometimes drastically. Israel Keyes is the "poster boy" for a killer who killed in a lot of different ways and was only captured through chance and great luck. At least ten of his murders could only be placed with him due to his confessions with offenders knowledge.
A police officer said most of his murders they would never have solved otherwise, because they were so different from each other. Keyes prepared for each murder with care, varied his methods massively, placed lots of faked evidence, made sure there were no known connections between the victims, planned exactly, but was not fixed on a victim. If someone better "fitting" crossed his path, he/she became the victim instead the "preplanned" person.
As said, only pure chance and great luck saw him caught.
Keyes is an extreme example of a preplaner, but he is not the only serial killer able to change methods as needed. For our case, killing poor prostitutes without much family in the near lawless slum 1888 Whitechapel was, is a different thing from killing middle class (or higher) wives, who have family and social surroundings who might get suspicious quite fast.

The Serial Killers you mentioned varied methods throughout they didn't suddenly go from mutilation to poisoning.

[John Wheat]

Hi John,

When people argue against Klosowski as a Ripper, I rarely if ever hear any other reason besides this one. It's a fair argument, but if that's the only problem, when one also considers that he is known to have had medical knowledge (which the Ripper might not have had to have, but it wouldn't have hurt), he was Abberline's top suspect, he lived in the area at the time, is a known serial killer of women, and one of his wives said she once found a knife under his pillow, I think that on balance, there are very few better suspects in the case than him.

I never said that he wasn't one of the better suspects maybe he is. However I still find it unlikely he could go from doing what Jack did to poisoning. Also off the top of my head Bury and Kelly are much better suspects. Proven murderers and in Bury's case a post mortem mutilator. I don't put much stock in what Abberline said. People keep going on about who the Police named at the time but they didn't agree and didn't solve the Ripper or the Torso murders so they are not exactly infallible.

[Fernglas]

The Serial Killers you mentioned varied methods throughout they didn't suddenly go from mutilation to poisoning.

Hi John,

sorry, but you miss the main point here. The killers I named are just known examples of serial killers changing methods, sometimes drastically. That many serial killer never change their style has other reasons, but they all could change their killing methods, if they wanted too.
And what is also overlooked too often or disregarded: Klosowski had moved up the social ladder. Slaughtering poor, near forgotten prostitutes, who would be missed by few, in the practically lawless slum 1888 Whitechapel was, is one thing, killing women/wives, who have family, friends, social surroundings, in normal city quarters in the mid/late 1890s is a different one. A serial killer has to change his methods there or get caught right away.

Bury and Kelly better suspects? Thanks for the laugh! Sorry again, but those two are just suspects because of superficial similarities. Neither one had ever the chance to gain the anatomical/medical knowledge the Ripper must have possessed. If you give doctors, coroners, etc. today the reports about e.g. Mitre Square the verdict is clear. The perpetrator of the Mitre Square killing had substantial anatomical/medical knowledge, however he gained it. Many also comment on the considerable speed the Ripper showed.

Since KE was to be killed, the Ripper could have simply cut out the kidney any way he wanted, Kati was dying anyway. But JtR didnīt just cut it out. In near darkness, on his knees, under time pressure he followed the steps a 1888 doctor would also have taken. Even today the steps for kidney removal going in that way are not done much differently from that age.
The Ripper knew he ...ed up and tried to hide the skill he showed by more mutilations afterwards and the GSG.

[John Wheat]

Hi John,

sorry, but you miss the main point here. The killers I named are just known examples of serial killers changing methods, sometimes drastically. That many serial killer never change their style has other reasons, but they all could change their killing methods, if they wanted too.
And what is also overlooked too often or disregarded: Klosowski had moved up the social ladder. Slaughtering poor, near forgotten prostitutes, who would be missed by few, in the practically lawless slum 1888 Whitechapel was, is one thing, killing women/wives, who have family, friends, social surroundings, in normal city quarters in the mid/late 1890s is a different one. A serial killer has to change his methods there or get caught right away.

Bury and Kelly better suspects? Thanks for the laugh! Sorry again, but those two are just suspects because of superficial similarities. Neither one had ever the chance to gain the anatomical/medical knowledge the Ripper must have possessed. If you give doctors, coroners, etc. today the reports about e.g. Mitre Square the verdict is clear. The perpetrator of the Mitre Square killing had substantial anatomical/medical knowledge, however he gained it. Many also comment on the considerable speed the Ripper showed.

Since KE was to be killed, the Ripper could have simply cut out the kidney any way he wanted, Kati was dying anyway. But JtR didnīt just cut it out. In near darkness, on his knees, under time pressure he followed the steps a 1888 doctor would also have taken. Even today the steps for kidney removal going in that way are not done much differently from that age.
The Ripper knew he ...ed up and tried to hide the skill he showed by more mutilations afterwards and the GSG.

You are completely wrong. Chapman changing his M.O. is a big deal and the proven violent murderers Bury and Kelly are much better suspects than Chapman.

[Fernglas]

You are completely wrong. Chapman changing his M.O. is a big deal and the proven violent murderers Bury and Kelly are much better suspects than Chapman.

Hi John,

pardon, but Klosowski changing his M.O. is not a big deal here. The circumstances under which he could murder had changed, so his methods had to change as well. As I wrote above, slaughtering poor prostitutes few will miss in a lawless slum is one thing. If a murderer wants to kill women/wives, who have family, friends, social circles who could get suspicious, in middle class or better city quarters, the killing method has to change as well.
And Klosowski kept to his extreme sadism, dying by Antimon poisoning is a terrible way to go and Klosowski got off on watching them die.

Also sorry again, anytime a ripperlogist comes with violent, uneducated as... like Bury, Hyams, Kelly and Co. as suspects, the Ripper smiles in his part of Hell! Because his tries at concealment were successful.
There can be no doubt anymore today that the Ripper possessed substantial anatomical/medical knowledge, he was NOT an amateur. No matter how and where he gained it, JtR possessed these skills in an era where it was even more rare than today. As I wrote above, you cannot fake yourself through a kidney surgery and that surgery was what happened that night in Mitre Square.
Neither Bury nor Kelly had the chance to gain the needed knowledge and skills to pull off the Double event. Neither of the two could have succeeded at extracting KEīs kidney the way it was done. Not even in broad daylight and in a medical ward. They simply did not possess the necessary skills.