Was Johnny Gill a Ripper Victim

[Aethelwulf]

Do we know anything about these letters and the Drury Lane address?

Hi Eten I came across that report a while back and asked the question. It's interesting because I would imagine the police dismissed most of the letters as hoaxes, but for some reason they seemed to think these were genuine. I can only think they included refs to very speciifc details only the killer would have known or were similar to other letters they belived genuine. Does anyone know if there is anything in Letters from Hell from late Dec?

[etenguy]

Hi Eten I came across that report a while back and asked the question. It's interesting because I would imagine the police dismissed most of the letters as hoaxes, but for some reason they seemed to think these were genuine. I can only think they included refs to very speciifc details only the killer would have known or were similar to other letters they belived genuine. Does anyone know if there is anything in Letters from Hell from late Dec?

The best I can find is Joseph Isaacs - arrested near Drury Lane but didn't live there and the timing is wrong.

[jerryd]

The best I can find is Joseph Isaacs - arrested near Drury Lane but didn't live there and the timing is wrong.

Hi Etenguy.

Just an observation. If we look at the case as a whole, there are several important figures that were currently living or had family living in the vicinity of Drury Lane during the relevant timeframe.

1) John Arnold (aka John Cleary) lived in Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane with his wife until he abandoned her and went to Harvey's Buildings, Strand. He is the man that predicted the body found in Backchurch Lane (Pinchin Torso case) before it was ever placed there.
2) Dennis Lynch lived in Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane. He was questioned in the Pinchin Torso case. He was known in Whitehorse Yard by the alias of "John Cleary" yet is not the same man as John Arnold who also used the alias "John Cleary".
3) Pearly Poll lived with her cousin for two days after the Tabram murder at No. 4 Feathers Court, Drury Lane.
4) As you have mentioned, Joseph Isaacs was arrested near all of these locations, IIRC, on Blackmoore Street which is two streets away from Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane.

[jerryd]

hey jer
thanks! did waterhouse have similar mutilations to gill?

Hi Abby.

She was stabbed 49 times, her throat was cut from ear to ear and had post mortem mutilation to her body and internal organs. Her limbs were nearly severed from her body. She was a 5 year old child and Walter Turner lived at one time on Manningham Lane and also in nearby Shipley.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby.

She was stabbed 49 times, her throat was cut from ear to ear and had post mortem mutilation to her body and internal organs. Her limbs were nearly severed from her body. She was a 5 year old child and Walter Turner lived at one time on Manningham Lane and also in nearby Shipley.

thanks jerry
your probably right. very similar to Gill.

[etenguy]

Hi Etenguy.

Just an observation. If we look at the case as a whole, there are several important figures that were currently living or had family living in the vicinity of Drury Lane during the relevant timeframe.

1) John Arnold (aka John Cleary) lived in Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane with his wife until he abandoned her and went to Harvey's Buildings, Strand. He is the man that predicted the body found in Backchurch Lane (Pinchin Torso case) before it was ever placed there.
2) Dennis Lynch lived in Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane. He was questioned in the Pinchin Torso case. He was known in Whitehorse Yard by the alias of "John Cleary" yet is not the same man as John Arnold who also used the alias "John Cleary".
3) Pearly Poll lived with her cousin for two days after the Tabram murder at No. 4 Feathers Court, Drury Lane.
4) As you have mentioned, Joseph Isaacs was arrested near all of these locations, IIRC, on Blackmoore Street which is two streets away from Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane.

Interesting links between Whitechapel and Covent garden areas. Based on the comment posted earlier - it seems at least one more also - but not clear who that might be.

[Aethelwulf]

Here is that strange story about the Bradford ripper letter. It's is certainly odd and doesn't sound like a publicity seeking stunt to me. Then there was the sighting in Bradford of a man who had twice been up for the whitechapel murders. Defo the strangest murder of 1888 - heart taken out and shoved under the chin, boots shoved in in the abdomen.

“A remarkable story came to the knowledge of the Bradford police some time on Thursday, on the morning of which the boy John Gill was first missed, and regarding which they have kept the strictest silence.

On Wednesday night last, a tailor named Cahill, of 324, Heaton-road – a thoroughfare in the suburb where the body was found, but about half a mile further from town and in a very isolated position – went to a ball with his wife.

Upon his return about 10 o’clock Thursday morning, an hour and a half after the boy was last seen with the milkman Barrett, he found that their home had been entered.

The furniture had been pulled about and turned upside down; a number of articles of various kinds had been thrown in a heap upon the table in the living room; and upon another table was a sight which struck him with horror.

A couple of carving knives were placed crosswise upon the table, and upon them was a card, on one side of which was written:- “Half-past 9 – look out – Jack the Ripper has been,” whilst on the other side were the words:- “I have removed down to the canal side. Please drop in. Yours truly, SUICIDE.”

There was a large tin can full of water on the same table, and the whole surface of the table was saturated with water.

The clock in the living room was stopped, and the fingers indicated the time stated on the card, half-past nine.

Nothing had been removed from the house, except a bottle of rum.

Another bottle of rum had been removed from the cupboard, and some of its contents bad been poured into two glasses, which were left upon the table almost empty.

[etenguy]

Here is that strange story about the Bradford ripper letter. It's is certainly odd and doesn't sound like a publicity seeking stunt to me. Then there was the sighting in Bradford of a man who had twice been up for the whitechapel murders. Defo the strangest murder of 1888 - heart taken out and shoved under the chin, boots shoved in in the abdomen.

“A remarkable story came to the knowledge of the Bradford police some time on Thursday, on the morning of which the boy John Gill was first missed, and regarding which they have kept the strictest silence.

On Wednesday night last, a tailor named Cahill, of 324, Heaton-road – a thoroughfare in the suburb where the body was found, but about half a mile further from town and in a very isolated position – went to a ball with his wife.

Upon his return about 10 o’clock Thursday morning, an hour and a half after the boy was last seen with the milkman Barrett, he found that their home had been entered.

The furniture had been pulled about and turned upside down; a number of articles of various kinds had been thrown in a heap upon the table in the living room; and upon another table was a sight which struck him with horror.

A couple of carving knives were placed crosswise upon the table, and upon them was a card, on one side of which was written:- “Half-past 9 – look out – Jack the Ripper has been,” whilst on the other side were the words:- “I have removed down to the canal side. Please drop in. Yours truly, SUICIDE.”

There was a large tin can full of water on the same table, and the whole surface of the table was saturated with water.

The clock in the living room was stopped, and the fingers indicated the time stated on the card, half-past nine.

Nothing had been removed from the house, except a bottle of rum.

Another bottle of rum had been removed from the cupboard, and some of its contents bad been poured into two glasses, which were left upon the table almost empty.

Hi AethelWulf

This is most strange - it would seem the incident occurred before the fate of the boy was known - so was yet another coincidence or there was something going on in Bradford related to the Ripper.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi AethelWulf

This is most strange - it would seem the incident occurred before the fate of the boy was known - so was yet another coincidence or there was something going on in Bradford related to the Ripper.

Yes it is strange. It implies a ripper at home in the east end and west Yorkshire. The boy doesn't appear to have been murdered in the stable so the killer would need use of some other place and get his hands on transport if the other place was at a distance. Possibly carried otherwise, perhaps the reason for the wrapping.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi AethelWulf

This is most strange - it would seem the incident occurred before the fate of the boy was known - so was yet another coincidence or there was something going on in Bradford related to the Ripper.

Hi Eten / Wulf,

The recent discussions on here encouraged me to re-read the book I mentioned previously.

It seems that the police at the time dismissed this story as a family prank, although on what grounds I have no idea.

It is one of the oddities thrown up by the Ripper story for sure!

[etenguy]

Hi Eten / Wulf,

The recent discussions on here encouraged me to re-read the book I mentioned previously.

It seems that the police at the time dismissed this story as a family prank, although on what grounds I have no idea.

It is one of the oddities thrown up by the Ripper story for sure!

Hi Ms Diddles

Chalk this up to coincidence then. It does sound very unlikely.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Ms Diddles

Chalk this up to coincidence then. It does sound very unlikely.

hi both, I dunno I find this hard to believe as a prank that the couple organised. Why do something so elaborate then report it and bring the police down on you who would most likely see it for a hoax and throw the book at you? If it was a prank i think it was someone with grudge against this pair, but then an actual ripper like murder takes place? Unlikely IMO. I still think there is an outside chance this could have been the ripper, but how and why .....

[Ms Diddles]

hi both, I dunno I find this hard to believe as a prank that the couple organised. Why do something so elaborate then report it and bring the police down on you who would most likely see it for a hoax and throw the book at you? If it was a prank i think it was someone with grudge against this pair, but then an actual ripper like murder takes place? Unlikely IMO. I still think there is an outside chance this could have been the ripper, but how and why .....

Hi Wulf,

I think the police viewed this incident as a prank played on the couple by family or friends who knew they were away for the night, rather than perpetrated by the couple themselves.

Some prank!

I believe the Cahill's were terrified and Mrs Cahill refused to ever return to the house.

A grudge is a possibility though, but I agree the timing is weird.

Like you say, unlikely but an outside chance.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Wulf,

I think the police viewed this incident as a prank played on the couple by family or friends who knew they were away for the night, rather than perpetrated by the couple themselves.

Some prank!

I believe the Cahill's were terrified and Mrs Cahill refused to ever return to the house.

A grudge is a possibility though, but I agree the timing is weird.

Like you say, unlikely but an outside chance.

Ok I see. Like you say, some prank. I find that a bit hard to believe to be honest. Also it would only be a small number of people who could have done it i suspect. I'm intrigued by the large can of water and SUICIDE. I wonder if trawling the newspaper archives would turn up a drowning 'suicide' that was actaully murder, by the the intruder.

[Ms Diddles]

Ok I see. Like you say, some prank. I find that a bit hard to believe to be honest. Also it would only be a small number of people who could have done it i suspect. I'm intrigued by the large can of water and SUICIDE. I wonder if trawling the newspaper archives would turn up a drowning 'suicide' that was actaully murder, by the the intruder.

Interesting thought, Wulf.

It feels terribly dark for a standard prank.