Was Johnny Gill a Ripper Victim

[Aethelwulf]

One man has been arrested on suspicion, some marks on his face and his general behaviour attracting attention. He wore a sealskin cap, and was dressed in a long coat, carrying with him a small bundle. He had dark whiskers and slight moustache. Sergeant Knapton made the arrest as the man was about to leave by train. The accused, who trembled violently and exhibited much emotion, would not speak a word.[/I]

Shame we don't know any more about this bloke as he seems to have been released as the other boy was charged. Two things I wouldn't mind knowing: 1- if he was about to board a train, where was he going; 2-were they fresh scratches on his face, or say, 6 days old? It doesn't appeal to most but I believe it was the ripper that botched the attack on farmer, who scratched his face. How did he manage or explain his scratched appearance to those who knew him following the attack - perhaps he just circumvented that by leaving...

[Aethelwulf]

The Havant case: https://localhistories.org/jack-the-ripper-in-havant/

As the crow flies, Havant is ~65 miles SW of Whitechapel, on the outskirts of Portsmouth. A local boy was in the frame but found not guilty and the case remained unsloved.

Apparently there was a letter sent to a magistrate a few days before the Searle murder with the message 'don't bother looking for me in london I am not there, yours jack the ripper- with a Portsmouth postmark. There also seems to have been some writing on a shutter and a suspicious fellow in a seal skin cap.

At nine o'clock the knife was discovered, about eight yards from the spot where the murder was committed, and where a large pool of blood indicated the nature of the crime. It is an ordinary buck-handle pocket knife. The small blade was closed, and was broken in two. The large blade was open, the weapon being so completely covered with blood that the finder could not touch it without being smeared. The general opinion at the outset was that this was the work of "Jack the Ripper," the letter recently published and the writing on the shutter in Hanover-street, Portsmouth, giving some colour to this suggestion. It seems, however, that the horrible deed was not committed by a skilful hand, four clumsy gashes having been inflicted. One man has been arrested on suspicion, some marks on his face and his general behaviour attracting attention. He wore a sealskin cap, and was dressed in a long coat, carrying with him a small bundle. He had dark whiskers and slight moustache. Sergeant Knapton made the arrest as the man was about to leave by train. The accused, who trembled violently and exhibited much emotion, would not speak a word.

[Aethelwulf]

The Havant case: https://localhistories.org/jack-the-ripper-in-havant/

As the crow flies, Havant is ~65 miles SW of Whitechapel, on the outskirts of Portsmouth. A local boy was in the frame but found not guilty and the case remained unsloved.

[Abby Normal]

I don't think there really is a consensus on this. I, personally, think it was Walter Lewis Turner. The man who killed 5 year old Barbara Waterhouse in nearby Leeds in 1891. Turner had connections to Bradford, lived in nearby Shipley at one time and was very violent. The police at the time of his hanging felt he could have been the culprit.

hey jer
thanks! did waterhouse have similar mutilations to gill?

[Aethelwulf]

I don't think there really is a consensus on this. I, personally, think it was Walter Lewis Turner. The man who killed 5 year old Barbara Waterhouse in nearby Leeds in 1891. Turner had connections to Bradford, lived in nearby Shipley at one time and was very violent. The police at the time of his hanging felt he could have been the culprit.

Hi Jerry, yes i did see reference to that in some of the discussions, might have been on JTR Forums. I'm not sure how much info there was on that - was it a similar case i.e. removal and placement of organs, clothes shoved inside the abdomen etc. There is certainly something Kelly like about the Gill murder and probably a local man surely inspired by the ripper. Wasn't there also some sort of ripper scare with a child in Havant? Although I have a feeling another boy confessed to that perhaps.

Last thought on Gill if some want to see a ripper link. It wouldn't suprise me if the ripper had a difficult childhood and found family time (e.g. birthdays/Christmas) difficult and a time that he might lash out. Perhaps if he had an awful childhood he might have taken his rage out on a child at was is usually a happy family time of year. Although why he would need to go to West Yorkshire for that doesn't make sense. Hope Ms D has some extra info on the suppposed ripper note and break in.

[jerryd]

This case had passed my by until recently. It must be the most awful murder of 1888. Is there any consensus on who done it? Seems like the milky was in the frame but I'm not sure. There are certainly some ripper like aspects, the placement or organs, sexual mutilation, destruction or odd use of victims clothing. A very weird one and can't see poor Gill being killed in this way if it weren't for inspiration from the ripper.

I don't think there really is a consensus on this. I, personally, think it was Walter Lewis Turner. The man who killed 5 year old Barbara Waterhouse in nearby Leeds in 1891. Turner had connections to Bradford, lived in nearby Shipley at one time and was very violent. The police at the time of his hanging felt he could have been the culprit.

[etenguy]

There's the weird thing about a local couple who lived around half a mile from where the body was found returning home on the morning that John Gill was last seen, to find that their house had been broken into, furniture and belongings in disarray, booze drunk and a note from "Jack The Ripper".

Hi Ms Diddles

Interesting post, especially the ripper connection. I wonder if this was true or a newspaper exaggeration.

[etenguy]

"The unfortunate victim had been indescribably mutilated. Both legs were cut off close to the body. The abdomen was slightly open, and the intestines partly extracted. Both ears were cut off, and there were other shocking disfigurements. When found, the limbs were tied to the body…The braces which the deceased had worn were used to bind the limbs to the trunk. The clothes of the boy were then wrapped round the body, the jacket enveloping the parcel."

This seems far more like Torso Maker than Jack.

"Here in Bradford he takes away the life of an innocent lad, drains every drop of blood out of his body, and then commences the work of cutting it up, finishing his horrible performance by tying the parts together and depositing them in a dark corner a hundred yards from the house where the little boy had lived".

Not killed in public, not a working prostitute, not even a woman, far from Whitechapel, deposited the remains away from the actual kill site.....so no, not Jack, but a very evil person for sure. Maybe Torso guy, or someone he inspired.

Hi Michael

You are probably correct, but Kelly was not killed in public, some serial killers also kill children sometimes - but you are correct that this would be the first time the kill site and discovered site would have been different if it was the ripper.

Since initially writing the OP, I have become more at ease with strange coincidences meaning nothing when exploring the ripper murders. Looking at the murder all coincidences aside, I still wonder whether the ripper murders inspired this atrocity.

[Michael W Richards]

Has anyone researched whether Johnny Gill, an 8 year old boy living in Bradford in 1888, was a victim of Jack the Ripper? I would be interested to find out more about his death since he fits a pattern for ripper victims regarding the dates of the murders.

The data pattern may be no more than coincidence, but extrapolating from it I searched for a ripper like murder around 28th December 1888 and found the reference to Johnny Gill. He was horribly mutilated in a manner not unlike the ripper victims, Kelly particularly. Dr Phillips was called in to examine the body, such were the suspicions at the time, though it was his opinion that young master Gill was not a ripper victim.

I am having difficulty finding much information on the net. I understand Patricia Cornwall refers to this murder in her ripper book (which I have not read). I could start there and with a fictionalised novel on amazon, but if any one knows of a decent researcher who has already considered this question, that might be a better place to begin.

"The unfortunate victim had been indescribably mutilated. Both legs were cut off close to the body. The abdomen was slightly open, and the intestines partly extracted. Both ears were cut off, and there were other shocking disfigurements. When found, the limbs were tied to the body…The braces which the deceased had worn were used to bind the limbs to the trunk. The clothes of the boy were then wrapped round the body, the jacket enveloping the parcel."

This seems far more like Torso Maker than Jack.

"Here in Bradford he takes away the life of an innocent lad, drains every drop of blood out of his body, and then commences the work of cutting it up, finishing his horrible performance by tying the parts together and depositing them in a dark corner a hundred yards from the house where the little boy had lived".

Not killed in public, not a working prostitute, not even a woman, far from Whitechapel, deposited the remains away from the actual kill site.....so no, not Jack, but a very evil person for sure. Maybe Torso guy, or someone he inspired.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Wulf,

I read a book a while ago about this strange case.

As far as I'm aware the only person in the frame was indeed the milkman who was found not guilty, to much celebration from the villagers IIRC.

If he really wasn't guilty, then it seems nobody had any idea whodunit.

There's the weird thing about a local couple who lived around half a mile from where the body was found returning home on the morning that John Gill was last seen, to find that their house had been broken into, furniture and belongings in disarray, booze drunk and a note from "Jack The Ripper".

This story may be erroneous, but it's kinda strange.

Did Bury have links with the Bradford area (or have I misremembered that!)?

Hey Dids yes that is what caught my eye, plus bury went missing for a number of days after Xmas 1888. I really don't know what his connection to west yorks was but he served time if Wakefield prison having spent some time as a vagrant on the streets of Dewsbury, which is 8 miles from Bradford. He is also on record as sleeping rough in stables. As it stands though bury resurfaced at 5.30am on the 28th dec and repeatedly hit his wife in the face. Unless the body was missed, the dates are a bit out. Body discoverd on 29th. Martin didn't give a statement to abberline until 14th Feb 89. Could he have been out with his dates?

Haven't heard about break in, booze and note before. What did the note say?

[Ms Diddles]

This case had passed my by until recently. It must be the most awful murder of 1888. Is there any consensus on who done it? Seems like the milky was in the frame but I'm not sure. There are certainly some ripper like aspects, the placement or organs, sexual mutilation, destruction or odd use of victims clothing. A very weird one and can't see poor Gill being killed in this way if it weren't for inspiration from the ripper.

Hi Wulf,

I read a book a while ago about this strange case.

As far as I'm aware the only person in the frame was indeed the milkman who was found not guilty, to much celebration from the villagers IIRC.

If he really wasn't guilty, then it seems nobody had any idea whodunit.

There's the weird thing about a local couple who lived around half a mile from where the body was found returning home on the morning that John Gill was last seen, to find that their house had been broken into, furniture and belongings in disarray, booze drunk and a note from "Jack The Ripper".

This story may be erroneous, but it's kinda strange.

Did Bury have links with the Bradford area (or have I misremembered that!)?

[Aethelwulf]

Has anyone researched whether Johnny Gill, an 8 year old boy living in Bradford in 1888, was a victim of Jack the Ripper? I would be interested to find out more about his death since he fits a pattern for ripper victims regarding the dates of the murders.

The data pattern may be no more than coincidence, but extrapolating from it I searched for a ripper like murder around 28th December 1888 and found the reference to Johnny Gill. He was horribly mutilated in a manner not unlike the ripper victims, Kelly particularly. Dr Phillips was called in to examine the body, such were the suspicions at the time, though it was his opinion that young master Gill was not a ripper victim.

I am having difficulty finding much information on the net. I understand Patricia Cornwall refers to this murder in her ripper book (which I have not read). I could start there and with a fictionalised novel on amazon, but if any one knows of a decent researcher who has already considered this question, that might be a better place to begin.

This case had passed my by until recently. It must be the most awful murder of 1888. Is there any consensus on who done it? Seems like the milky was in the frame but I'm not sure. There are certainly some ripper like aspects, the placement or organs, sexual mutilation, destruction or odd use of victims clothing. A very weird one and can't see poor Gill being killed in this way if it weren't for inspiration from the ripper.

[Errata]

interesting. ans yes there could be some use in this type of analysis. but i think it is problematic when trying to decribe torsoman as i think that there is some overlap between MO and sig in the way he disposed the body. as in i think he did need to dismember to help get the body out of his chop shop but i think he also enjoyed cutting up the body. and i think he also enjoyed the way he left the parts in odd and shocking places.

imho i think these categories are too broad and not specific enough. would break down the categories as follows:

body abandoners: as you say, no interest in body once they are done. and no moving, displaying. body left were killed.ex. zodiac, son of sam

body dumpers: body moved when done. no post mortem interest. dumped to just get rid of. victim killed somewhere else. moved to distance from killers identity. no overt attempt to hide. ex. hillside stranglers

body stashers: body moved to come back to. post mortem interest. ex. bundy, green river

body hoarders: body kept close to killer. major post mortem interest. ex dahmer, gein

body hiders: body dumped and hidden. usually buried. max attempt to distance from killer and cover tracks. no post mortem interest. usually domestic murders. killer and victim known to each other.

body displayers: body displayed or staged in odd and shocking fasion. left where killed- ex. ripper, rollins
sub category: mover/ displayer . body moved but displayed, staged. ex. torsoman. william suff.
both major post mortem interest.

as most categories there could be overlap, obviously, depending on killers circs and escalation. ex. torsoripper.

I buy every bit of that. I think the broader categories were only in place because they were attempting only to describe the immediate behavior of the kills, not the longer view, nor the psychological needs. But either way we can see how important factors other than motive may be. And how looking at other descriptors can help sort out victims and methods.

[Abby Normal]

interesting. ans yes there could be some use in this type of analysis. but i think it is problematic when trying to decribe torsoman as i think that there is some overlap between MO and sig in the way he disposed the body. as in i think he did need to dismember to help get the body out of his chop shop but i think he also enjoyed cutting up the body. and i think he also enjoyed the way he left the parts in odd and shocking places.

imho i think these categories are too broad and not specific enough. would break down the categories as follows:

body abandoners: as you say, no interest in body once they are done. and no moving, displaying. body left were killed.ex. zodiac, son of sam

body dumpers: body moved when done. no post mortem interest. dumped to just get rid of. victim killed somewhere else. moved to distance from killers identity. no overt attempt to hide. ex. hillside stranglers

body stashers: body moved to come back to. post mortem interest. ex. bundy, green river

body hoarders: body kept close to killer. major post mortem interest. ex dahmer, gein

body hiders: body dumped and hidden. usually buried. max attempt to distance from killer and cover tracks. no post mortem interest. usually domestic murders. killer and victim known to each other.
body hider sub category post mortem: body dumped and hidden, initial post mortem interest. ex. LISK

body displayers: body displayed or staged in odd and shocking fasion. left where killed- ex. ripper, rollins
sub category: mover/ displayer . body moved but displayed, staged. ex. torsoman. william suff.
both major post mortem interest.

as most categories there could be overlap, obviously, depending on killers circs and escalation. ex. torsoripper.

edited to imclude body hider sub category

[Abby Normal]

Oh god the muscle relaxers are killing me

what I meant to essentially express is that you can sort serial killers by any number of ways. Motive, weapons, sex, organization, height if you really wanted to. This is just another category to sort into. If you take every serial killer you know, and divide them into one of those three categories of body disposition, the killers in each column will share certain traits. And the idea is that those traits or as useful in identifying a serial killer as any other trait. Not my idea, by any means. But a good one I think in general. Though problematic for this usage.

interesting. ans yes there could be some use in this type of analysis. but i think it is problematic when trying to decribe torsoman as i think that there is some overlap between MO and sig in the way he disposed the body. as in i think he did need to dismember to help get the body out of his chop shop but i think he also enjoyed cutting up the body. and i think he also enjoyed the way he left the parts in odd and shocking places.

imho i think these categories are too broad and not specific enough. would break down the categories as follows:

body abandoners: as you say, no interest in body once they are done. and no moving, displaying. body left were killed.ex. zodiac, son of sam

body dumpers: body moved when done. no post mortem interest. dumped to just get rid of. victim killed somewhere else. moved to distance from killers identity. no overt attempt to hide. ex. hillside stranglers

body stashers: body moved to come back to. post mortem interest. ex. bundy, green river

body hoarders: body kept close to killer. major post mortem interest. ex dahmer, gein

body hiders: body dumped and hidden. usually buried. max attempt to distance from killer and cover tracks. no post mortem interest. usually domestic murders. killer and victim known to each other.

body displayers: body displayed or staged in odd and shocking fasion. left where killed- ex. ripper, rollins
sub category: mover/ displayer . body moved but displayed, staged. ex. torsoman. william suff.
both major post mortem interest.

as most categories there could be overlap, obviously, depending on killers circs and escalation. ex. torsoripper.