Was Johnny Gill a Ripper Victim

[etenguy]

Hi Etenguy.

Just an observation. If we look at the case as a whole, there are several important figures that were currently living or had family living in the vicinity of Drury Lane during the relevant timeframe.

1) John Arnold (aka John Cleary) lived in Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane with his wife until he abandoned her and went to Harvey's Buildings, Strand. He is the man that predicted the body found in Backchurch Lane (Pinchin Torso case) before it was ever placed there.
2) Dennis Lynch lived in Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane. He was questioned in the Pinchin Torso case. He was known in Whitehorse Yard by the alias of "John Cleary" yet is not the same man as John Arnold who also used the alias "John Cleary".
3) Pearly Poll lived with her cousin for two days after the Tabram murder at No. 4 Feathers Court, Drury Lane.
4) As you have mentioned, Joseph Isaacs was arrested near all of these locations, IIRC, on Blackmoore Street which is two streets away from Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane.

Interesting links between Whitechapel and Covent garden areas. Based on the comment posted earlier - it seems at least one more also - but not clear who that might be.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby.

She was stabbed 49 times, her throat was cut from ear to ear and had post mortem mutilation to her body and internal organs. Her limbs were nearly severed from her body. She was a 5 year old child and Walter Turner lived at one time on Manningham Lane and also in nearby Shipley.

thanks jerry
your probably right. very similar to Gill.

[jerryd]

hey jer
thanks! did waterhouse have similar mutilations to gill?

Hi Abby.

She was stabbed 49 times, her throat was cut from ear to ear and had post mortem mutilation to her body and internal organs. Her limbs were nearly severed from her body. She was a 5 year old child and Walter Turner lived at one time on Manningham Lane and also in nearby Shipley.

[jerryd]

The best I can find is Joseph Isaacs - arrested near Drury Lane but didn't live there and the timing is wrong.

Hi Etenguy.

Just an observation. If we look at the case as a whole, there are several important figures that were currently living or had family living in the vicinity of Drury Lane during the relevant timeframe.

1) John Arnold (aka John Cleary) lived in Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane with his wife until he abandoned her and went to Harvey's Buildings, Strand. He is the man that predicted the body found in Backchurch Lane (Pinchin Torso case) before it was ever placed there.
2) Dennis Lynch lived in Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane. He was questioned in the Pinchin Torso case. He was known in Whitehorse Yard by the alias of "John Cleary" yet is not the same man as John Arnold who also used the alias "John Cleary".
3) Pearly Poll lived with her cousin for two days after the Tabram murder at No. 4 Feathers Court, Drury Lane.
4) As you have mentioned, Joseph Isaacs was arrested near all of these locations, IIRC, on Blackmoore Street which is two streets away from Whitehorse Yard, Drury Lane.

[etenguy]

Hi Eten I came across that report a while back and asked the question. It's interesting because I would imagine the police dismissed most of the letters as hoaxes, but for some reason they seemed to think these were genuine. I can only think they included refs to very speciifc details only the killer would have known or were similar to other letters they belived genuine. Does anyone know if there is anything in Letters from Hell from late Dec?

The best I can find is Joseph Isaacs - arrested near Drury Lane but didn't live there and the timing is wrong.

[Aethelwulf]

Do we know anything about these letters and the Drury Lane address?

Hi Eten I came across that report a while back and asked the question. It's interesting because I would imagine the police dismissed most of the letters as hoaxes, but for some reason they seemed to think these were genuine. I can only think they included refs to very speciifc details only the killer would have known or were similar to other letters they belived genuine. Does anyone know if there is anything in Letters from Hell from late Dec?

[etenguy]

[FONT=Calibri]Yes, I suppose the key word is 'rumour'. Even if the ID was off, it sounds like someone was in Leman Street twice on suspicion.

It seems the Bradford police had more information than the London police - both the above was reported as well as

The police have received and traced to their origin letters which lead them to believe that Jack the Ripper is living in the vicinity of Drury Lane. They do not accept the theory that the Whitechapel fiend had anything to do with the murder of little John Gill, and seem confident that the clew upon which they are now working will result in the murderer's capture in London.

Do we know anything about these letters and the Drury Lane address?

[Aethelwulf]

Intriguing, Wulf!

I have never seen that before.

Yes, I suppose the key word is 'rumour'. Even if the ID was off, it sounds like someone was in Leman Street twice on suspicion.

These child murders may well be red herrings, but I wouldn't put any level of depravity beyond the man that killed the C5, especially Kelly. It could be a mistake to discount victims that don't fit the usual pattern. After all, the C5 is only a sample size of 5 - that isn't enough to categorically say which cases are irrelevant. Even with that Havant murder there are some points on note - two bladed knife, one short, one long; stabbed in the neck (tabram and wilson). Man in long dark coat, slight moustache carrying a bundle, odd behaviour, the ripper note and message on a shutter. One witness states that he saw the arrested man (later released) near the murder spot. How fast was a Victorian train - 30 mph - portsmouth would be a day trip from london.

[Ms Diddles]

Who was this guy? Friday would have been 28th Dec, body found early 29th. Manningham is in Bradford.

Intriguing, Wulf!

I have never seen that before.

[Aethelwulf]

Who was this guy? Friday would have been 28th Dec, body found early 29th. Manningham is in Bradford.

[etenguy]

Hi etenguy,

Im of the mindset that there is no need to presume madness as the primary motivation when looking at any of the Ripper murders, and that enables me to look for signs of other kinds of possible motivations present. Madness in actions taken do not necessarily equate to a madness as the primary motivator in my estimation. Take Kelly for example. Indoors, dressed for sleeping, almost taken apart, heart taken, flesh stripped from bone... these are not traditional Ripper murder elements. They are mad acts, to be sure, but is Madness the only choice for Motive?

Mary acknowledged to Julia that she was seeing another "Joe" while seeing Barnett, many believe that was Flemming. She was treated roughly by this other Joe. Do people do mad crazy things based on jealousy, love, anger, rage? Yep, they do. Is this perhaps a case of one of those issues? I dont know. But I do know that the removal of a heart may well relate to those kinds of issues. And Flemming is institutionalized a few years after these crimes. Just saying, True Madness, like what was seen with Annie Chapman, is very, very rare. These other things are not so rare. Maybe eliminate the horses before searching for Unicorns?

Hi Michael

Quite possibly. Events around the MJK murder were a little peculiar - Maxwell - Lewis - burnt clothes - police behaviour -etc...

[etenguy]

Hi Eten,

It's a strange tale.

I wondered whether the couple were just making it up to seek attention, or indeed if could be an exaggeration by the press.

Hi Ms Diddles

I think it was likely made up, either by journalists or the couple themselves. What it does tell us though is that locals, at least, thought there was reason to believe this crime was possibly committed by the Whitechapel murderer. Coupled with Phillip's visit - it was clearly a serious line of enquiry - however, in the end Phillips said no and other suspects seem more likely.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

You are probably correct, but Kelly was not killed in public, some serial killers also kill children sometimes - but you are correct that this would be the first time the kill site and discovered site would have been different if it was the ripper.

Since initially writing the OP, I have become more at ease with strange coincidences meaning nothing when exploring the ripper murders. Looking at the murder all coincidences aside, I still wonder whether the ripper murders inspired this atrocity.

Hi etenguy,

Im of the mindset that there is no need to presume madness as the primary motivation when looking at any of the Ripper murders, and that enables me to look for signs of other kinds of possible motivations present. Madness in actions taken do not necessarily equate to a madness as the primary motivator in my estimation. Take Kelly for example. Indoors, dressed for sleeping, almost taken apart, heart taken, flesh stripped from bone... these are not traditional Ripper murder elements. They are mad acts, to be sure, but is Madness the only choice for Motive?

Mary acknowledged to Julia that she was seeing another "Joe" while seeing Barnett, many believe that was Flemming. She was treated roughly by this other Joe. Do people do mad crazy things based on jealousy, love, anger, rage? Yep, they do. Is this perhaps a case of one of those issues? I dont know. But I do know that the removal of a heart may well relate to those kinds of issues. And Flemming is institutionalized a few years after these crimes. Just saying, True Madness, like what was seen with Annie Chapman, is very, very rare. These other things are not so rare. Maybe eliminate the horses before searching for Unicorns?

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Jerry, yes i did see reference to that in some of the discussions, might have been on JTR Forums. I'm not sure how much info there was on that - was it a similar case i.e. removal and placement of organs, clothes shoved inside the abdomen etc. There is certainly something Kelly like about the Gill murder and probably a local man surely inspired by the ripper. Wasn't there also some sort of ripper scare with a child in Havant? Although I have a feeling another boy confessed to that perhaps.

Last thought on Gill if some want to see a ripper link. It wouldn't suprise me if the ripper had a difficult childhood and found family time (e.g. birthdays/Christmas) difficult and a time that he might lash out. Perhaps if he had an awful childhood he might have taken his rage out on a child at was is usually a happy family time of year. Although why he would need to go to West Yorkshire for that doesn't make sense. Hope Ms D has some extra info on the suppposed ripper note and break in.

Hi Wulf,

There's an outline of the story on this JtR Tour website.

https://www.jack-the-ripper-tour.com/generalnews/the-murder-of-john-gill/

Just scroll down to "A Remarkable Story".

The book which I read is called "Who Killed Little Johnny Gill" by Kathryn McMaster.

It's a fictionalised account of the case (which isn't always my bag), but to be fair the author does seem to remain faithful to the known facts and has clearly done her homework.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms Diddles

Interesting post, especially the ripper connection. I wonder if this was true or a newspaper exaggeration.

Hi Eten,

It's a strange tale.

I wondered whether the couple were just making it up to seek attention, or indeed if could be an exaggeration by the press.