Did Jack only kill 3?

[Wickerman]

Jon, when Kate was with the people I am suggesting it was already 8pm. They agree to meet later. Knowing that Kate was potted at 8pm...

Mike.
At 8:30 pm Kate was laying across the footpath, drunk, with a crowd standing around her. Is this Kate being "with people" that you are talking about?

Are you suggesting some of those people made an agreement with a drunk laying on the path to see her later?

Who were those people?, just passers-by, having a nosey?
If you suggest she was meeting people with a view to criminal activity, then we need to know that any one of those people were actually criminals.
You suggesting they might be does not mean anything. We are supposed to draw conclusions based on evidence, not suggest that Kate "might" have been getting involved in blackmail and that she "may" have met some people who "may" have been criminals.

Thats too many "maybe's" Mike. Its a fictional scenario not based on anything tangible.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Jon. Although I do not like to speak for Mike, I think the suggestion turns round the one/s who bought Kate drinks.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
In the back of my mind , I have often believed a connection between Eddowes and Mary Kelly ,if only for the dreadful mutilation including facial.. on poor Kate.
The fact that she lived with a man called Kelly could have a connection with Mary [Millers court] as McCarthy informed the press that Mary Jane, some months back had come to live with a man called Kelly, so one wonders exactly when 'he' became aware of the name Barnett?
question.
Was Eddowes killed by mistake?
Again in the realms of speculation, however it is possible that all the killer knew was, the woman he was after, lived with a man called Kelly, and used the name Mary Jane.
I always have remembered the nun, from Barlow and Watts series in the early 1970s, albeit we have to be a bit cautious..
Quote..
''If it was not for the Kelly woman , none of the murders would have happened''.
This allegedly came from a conversation, that this nun heard from a elderly sister in around 1915..who was in the area in 1888.
I love a conspiracy ...
Regards Richard.

[curious4]

Sorry but that spring onion always does it for me!

Chuckling

Dave

Well you never know when a spring onion might come in handy! Be prepared, that's my motto.

C4

[Phil Carter]

In the back of my mind , I have often believed a connection between Eddowes and Mary Kelly ,if only for the dreadful mutilation including facial.. on poor Kate.

Was Eddowes killed by mistake?

.

Hello REichard,

I've always said a 2-1-2 or a 2-1-1-1 scenario.

The reason for the 2-1-2 is the above.. the wanton destruction and attempt to defacialize..to take away an identity. Because of the time restrictions with Eddowes, this was only partly possible, especially if one believes the two murders were connected by the same hand.

If the two murders wern't connected. a 2-1-1-1- scenario.

I admit to being in two minds. No conspiracy, but the Irish question rears it's head here, particularly with Kelly. As regards Eddowes.. giving that name at the Police Station nags me. Because as far as I know, she may well have been known as John Kelly's woman, but not using Catherine Kelly baffles me.

I wonder if we shall ever find out?

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Baffling?

Its quite straightforward. However some just cannot help but fictionalise the story.

Monty

[Phil H]

Was Eddowes killed by mistake?
Again in the realms of speculation, however it is possible that all the killer knew was, the woman he was after, lived with a man called Kelly, and used the name Mary Jane.
I always have remembered the nun, from Barlow and Watts series in the early 1970s, albeit we have to be a bit cautious..
Quote..
''If it was not for the Kelly woman , none of the murders would have happened''.

These questions raise a whole nexus of issues.

The "Jack was always looking for Mary Kelly" scenario goes back to at least Leonard Matters and his Dr Stanley theory/invention (1929?). The 1959 film includes the same question.

I think we can say that idea has been overtaken by time (though I still respect Matters highly for the first part of his book).

Knight (and Barlow and Watt a bit) hinted at something similar - viz: that the conspirators were looking for MJK all the time. Again, I think (pace From Hell) that the Knight theory met its maker sometime ago.

As for Eddowes and her "false name" - coincidence?

There is now the chance that Kelly was mixed up on the fringes (or in the middle of) some Fenian conspiracy - but as far as I am aware no evidence beyond speculative/circumstantial. Did Eddowes know of this - we simply don't know - but I prefer the coincidence explanation unless/until we get more evidence. After all, she was with a man named Kelly!!

(Could it be that everyone in the alleged Fenian plot had the nickname "Kelly" as a sort of code? Rather like "I am Spartacus!!" or like "Jacques" in the French Revolution?)

I thought the "nun" anecdote had been exploded, but I am unsure why I think that.

Phil H

[Phil Carter]

I just find it baffling she didn't use Catherine Kelly or Kate Kelly when asked her name.

That isn't fictionalizing anything Monty.. you know full well what name she gave.

Now please cut the attitude eh?.. If you are having a bad day, take it out over someone else.. Im tired after a very heavy day and don't need these inane comments every time I post... so please...drop it eh? Ain't in the mood ok? Rare..but true. Just leave it.

thank you

Phil

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks for the references.

OK, let's pursue this line for a bit. You are suggesting, what?

Something along the lines of a confusion between "MJK" and Kate? Then it's "MJK" who is really wanted?

I am wondering how that story could be made to tie in with Kate having information on someone?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I believe that Kate may have known Mary Kelly through the same social circles I mentioned. She may also believe Mary has the same information she had, which also makes her a target. Perhaps part of the bargain Kate strikes with her hypothetical representatives of a serious bad guy is that she provide them with a name of any others who shared the info.

I believe its at least possible, given the timing, the location and the intermediary, that Mary might have acted as a consort to a Fenian when she traveled to Paris. We know they met other Fenians and British secret police there over the years and we know some women were not merely wall dressing on these occasions.

Just speculating, but using what little evidence there is.

Cheers Lynn.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

Just an observation, but clearly all three stories you quoted had a common source, the Press Association. It may not make any difference, but with a common source the three separate stories do not provide corroborastion.

Don.

I used all 3 Don because their wording is not a verbatim reiteration of a press release, and I believe items that were released by the Association were more properly vetted and likely more accurate.

It was really to illustrate that only the Times, on I believe the 2nd, stated the pawn ticket was issued to Anne Kelly, as Lynn stated.

Regards,

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

Mike.
At 8:30 pm Kate was laying across the footpath, drunk, with a crowd standing around her. Is this Kate being "with people" that you are talking about?

Are you suggesting some of those people made an agreement with a drunk laying on the path to see her later?

Who were those people?, just passers-by, having a nosey?
If you suggest she was meeting people with a view to criminal activity, then we need to know that any one of those people were actually criminals.
You suggesting they might be does not mean anything. We are supposed to draw conclusions based on evidence, not suggest that Kate "might" have been getting involved in blackmail and that she "may" have met some people who "may" have been criminals.

Thats too many "maybe's" Mike. Its a fictional scenario not based on anything tangible.

Regards, Jon S.

Jon, Lynn clarified it for you but to add I believe that she met with "people" that afternoon, perhaps following up on a conversation with one or more earlier in the week, and they plied her with booze while assessing how real a threat her knowledge was to their work.

If the hypothesis is somewhat accurate, I would have to believe that the "work" would be anarchy and terrorism, and they would surely kill anyone who threatened to expose one or more of their conspirators.

Cheers,
Mike

[Michael W Richards]

Baffling?

Its quite straightforward. However some just cannot help but fictionalise the story.

Monty

And conversely some will not see the forest for the trees.

In case youve not noticed Monty none of the old dogma has solved a single Canonical crime. So trying out other options for size is not only wise, its almost essential to do so.

We have existing statements and quotes and the odd, yes odd, co-incidental usage by Kate of almost the entirety of Mary Kellys name and address in her 2 last aliases. They share Irish connections, Kates through relationships.

The idea that there was some connection between the 2, particularly since Dorset Street itself plays quite prominently in the Ripper tales, isnt far fetched. Just unproven.

Regards,
Michael

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The fact is, somehow Kate found the money to get rather drunk, either by prostituting herself [ which apparently was not usual] or was plied with drink by someone with intentions.
I like the idea, that she was plied with drink to find out if she was a ''threat'' to someone, whether or not that was Fenian related, we cannot know.
Maybe she got arrested before she could be taken to a suitable place to silence, and her killer simply kept a careful watch on Bishopsgate nick, until she was released.
That might explain why she apparently turned the wrong way after leaving the exit door..Did she see a familiar face close by?
All of this seems like a 'B movie plot, but she either got money from an afternoon punter, and immediately drank it away , or someone put his hand in his pocket , out of the kindness of their heart, and got her sloshed...
All very baffling..
Regards Richard.

[Phil H]

The idea that there was some connection between the 2, particularly since Dorset Street itself plays quite prominently in the Ripper tales, isnt far fetched. Just unproven. [My emphasis.]

I don't think that argument would wash very well in academic circles!!

Well, you could justify almost any old theory by saying that, and I have read posts on Casebook by some who undoubtedly would!!

On the other hand, I'm not entirely unsympathetic to your view. I don't think the old dogma (as you call them) has got us very far. We do need to question everything.

I need to update myself on the latest Fenian position viz a viz JtR (I've been absent from the site for a few months).

Cordially

Phil H

[lynn cates]

speculation

Hello Mike. Thanks. I can find some reasons to cause me to speculate on "MJK" as an informant. But, so far, no reason to include Kate.

Of course, I am:

1. Open to suggestion.

2. Willing to listen to a well thought out scenario and critique it impartially.

Cheers.
LC