Did Jack only kill 3?

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks. I think you see the same problem then.

Cheers.
LC

Tell me what problem you are seeing.

[lynn cates]

problem

Hello Velma. Thanks. I think you see the same problem then.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. A question arises. Given the scenario you and Mike are considering, why would "Mary" be seen at all? I would be gone in double quick time.

Cheers.
LC

I agree with you. I'd be out of there. Unless . . . she had to talk to Barnett before she left to convince him to identify the body as her. He had to follow through and convince everyone she was dead.

If he had looked at the eyes and ears of the strange body and said he had no idea who it was then all the work would be for naught and whoever was looking for her would continue the search. The entire reason for the mess that was made of the body was to make it unidentifiable.

You would think the organization and planning would have allowed time to fix that before hand, but perhaps an emergency arose and Mary knew that only she could persuade Barnett to identify the remains as her. Thus she was seen in the morning trying to locate him before the body was discovered in her room.

And, Lynn, I don't really actually consider this scenario likely. I have mentally explored it to some degree, but the amount of evil necessary here puts it out of reach for me to believe that is what happened.

On the other hand, where did Barnett go from 1888 until he showed up again in Whitechapel years later?

[lynn cates]

hasty retreat

Hello Velma. A question arises. Given the scenario you and Mike are considering, why would "Mary" be seen at all? I would be gone in double quick time.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Erased is perhaps more apt than removed in this case, dont you agree? Unless the real woman we know as Mary Kelly was removed from London and in her place we have an unknown cadaver.

All the best,
Mike R

Mike,
I have considered this and it bespeaks such an evil my mind can not even contemplate it.

For that to have happened, the woman we know as Mary would have been complaisant in the murder and destruction of another woman. However, that could explain the complete destruction of the body. People who had known the "real Mary" might have recognized her legs and arms.

For this scenario to have happened, Joe Barnett had to have covered for her. Which I have considered would also explain why people kept seeing Mary after her supposed death.

However, this has just occurred to me, literally as I was typing --- that might explain why Joe Barnett vanished for ?what was it? a decade? Did he and Mary go somewhere together? Was he also in danger?

As I said, this theory requires evil that I can't begin to comprehend and even my active imagination can't go there.

[lynn cates]

Quien?

Hello Mike. Thanks. I think that the worst problem for that scenario comes from asking the question, "Who died in Miller's Court?"

Cheers.
LC

[DrHopper]

The name Marie Jeanette may have spawned Mary Jane if both are just characters she played.

The name Maria Jeanette is her baptismal name given to her at her first baptism, and subsequently used in all official dealings with the Catholic Church - her burial for example. All good Catholics have a baptismal name, and it is usually a Latinised version of the individual's normal name, which is, in this case, Mary Jane.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks. What bothers me is that, apart from Barnett, no one seems to show up to claim knowledge of her (I except a few news stories).

Cheers.
LC

How many of the characters we read about in Fenian Fire for example used aliases, and were active in roles that essentially were "covers". The name Marie Jeanette may have spawned Mary Jane if both are just characters she played.

Its not inconceivable that she cvould have orchestrated her deliverance from the clutches of comrades anxious to silence her by providing a corpse and had help with witness testimony when it came to ID'ing the victim. What if Barnett agreed to lie and ID that body so she could leave clandestinely for example? What if he left that room at the end of November because both he and Mary knew someone bad was looking for her. What if her arrears represent her unwillingness to work while this threat was present. Say, for the three weeks leading up to her death.

What if Kates last alias then her murder tipped Mary off to the threat?

Just whatiffin.

Cheers Lynn,
Mike R

[lynn cates]

no shows

Hello Mike. Thanks. What bothers me is that, apart from Barnett, no one seems to show up to claim knowledge of her (I except a few news stories).

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Dr. Thanks.

I don't think that MJK was an incipient message per se. Of course, whoever knew who she was, and understood what had happened (the RIC?) would read it loud and clear.

The PP murders and, to a lesser extent, Dr. Cronin compare favourably to what happened at Miller's Court. Indeed, they were not women, but they were perceived as needing to be "removed."

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I feel that Mary may well have been acting as an escort for someone when she had spent the fortnight in Paris, and since we know Paris and Bologne are staging points for the Brotherhood and Glan-Na-Gael, one wonders if she got involved with some people who were involved in things like Phoenix Park.

Erased is perhaps more apt than removed in this case, dont you agree? Unless the real woman we know as Mary Kelly was removed from London and in her place we have an unknown cadaver.

All the best,
Mike R

[lynn cates]

message

Hello Dr. Thanks.

I don't think that MJK was an incipient message per se. Of course, whoever knew who she was, and understood what had happened (the RIC?) would read it loud and clear.

The PP murders and, to a lesser extent, Dr. Cronin compare favourably to what happened at Miller's Court. Indeed, they were not women, but they were perceived as needing to be "removed."

Cheers.
LC

[DrHopper]

Hello Dr. You may be missing a good deal.

Have you, perchance, read the Clan-na-Gael message regarding informants? Familiarised yourself with the details of the Phoenix Park murders? Read the book about the murder of Dr. Cronin?

Cheers.
LC

All politics is full of intrigue and murder, especially the struggle for Irish independence (it still is). However, I'm just not sure that even the most rapid Fenian would do what was done to MJK to send a message. Phoenix Park and Cronin all seem like regular murders (if ever there was an oxymoron!), no one was mutilated, and importantly, none was a woman. The LVP was a different world, and even scary Fenians would have raised their hats to women.

Just my thoughts.

DrH

[lynn cates]

Removals R Us

Hello Dr. You may be missing a good deal.

Have you, perchance, read the Clan-na-Gael message regarding informants? Familiarised yourself with the details of the Phoenix Park murders? Read the book about the murder of Dr. Cronin?

Cheers.
LC

[DrHopper]

And if Kelly was killed because of some Irish connection, surely she would have just been stabbbed or her throat slit to shut her up, there would be no need to totally destroy her!

Yes!
This exactly!
This is why the "Irish Theory" holds absolutely no water with me.
The line is that she was mutilated to send a message... but to whom?
We don't know who she was, they didn't know who she was - she was, according to the theory, in hiding under an assumed name, so who the hell would get the message?
"Oh no! A random murder of a person in Whitechapel, another JTR victim and one that is completely unconnected to me, I'd better keep my mouth shut just in case".
Or am I missing something?

[Michael W Richards]

Distances are irrelevant. The point is that the killer in both Hanbury Street and Berner Street made sure that he was NEXT TO THE EXIT in the event he had to flee. Had Stride been killed far into the back yard, he would be deviating from his behavior in Hanbury Street. The location of this murder is yet another point of similarity between the Hanbury Street murder and the Berner Street murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

To me Tom the entrance to the property and the backyard of one are disparate, not similar.

Liz Strides feet may have been a foot or two inside the gates, not the best local for a prostitute, with cottagers awake and the club side door ajar....further in the yard offered darkness and privacy. If shes not prostituting, why would Jack be interested?

Much of the physical evidence along with most of the circumstantial evidence suggest that there were substantial differences in these 2 murders.

The most obvious aside for the moment.

Cheers,

Mike R