Originally posted by Sam Flynn
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Ripper victims were caught sleeping?
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Originally posted by jmenges View PostWhat we're being targeted for is having the knowledge of the evidence that she at any time in her life resorted to 'subsistence prostitution' (coined, I think, by Mark Ripper) and there's plenty of evidence for that.
I liked Mark Ripper's coinage of "subsistence prostitution", and I'd only observe that the plight of some was so dire that "subsistence just-about-anything" (prostitution, begging, theft, selling one's boots...) could have been necessary on occasion.Last edited by Sam Flynn; 03-16-2019, 01:55 PM.
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Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
This is from Lloyds Weekly on September 9th Sam;
"For the last nine months she had been sleeping at a lodging-house, 35, Dorset-street, Spitalfields, and she was there as recently as two o'clock yesterday morning eating some potatoes. She had not, however, the money to pay for her bed, and at two o'clock she left with the remark to the keeper of the place, "I'll soon be back again; I'll soon get the money for my doss."
I use this to show that Polly believed she could acquire doss "soon", and that the only way she could predictably earn money at 2am is by prostitution.
Incidentally, if she had found some stray pennies, successfully begged for her doss, or was given the same voluntarily by a passing charitable person, would she stayed out looking for a "customer", or would she have headed to her doss-house and paid for her bed? A thought-experiment, nothing more, but an interesting one I hope.
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostIt's the assumption that she "must" have made her money by prostitution that has made us easy meat for our critics, and we need to be careful.
JM
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostThere is some evidence, indeed one explicit statement to the effect that Nichols lived the life of an unfortunate, but we don't know that she was actively soliciting in the hours leading to her death; it's still supposition, however well informed by circumstantial evidence. Personally, I don't have an issue with the idea - indeed, I think it likely on balance - but we must be cognisant that she could have obtained the money by other means, especially during the daylight hours. It's the assumption that she "must" have made her money by prostitution that has made us easy meat for our critics, and we need to be careful.
"For the last nine months she had been sleeping at a lodging-house, 35, Dorset-street, Spitalfields, and she was there as recently as two o'clock yesterday morning eating some potatoes. She had not, however, the money to pay for her bed, and at two o'clock she left with the remark to the keeper of the place, "I'll soon be back again; I'll soon get the money for my doss."
I use this to show that Polly believed she could acquire doss "soon", and that the only way she could predictably earn money at 2am is by prostitution.
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Originally posted by Michael W Richards View PostAll true of course Sam, but I believe in Nichols case we have sufficient circumstantial evidence to suggest she was actively soliciting.
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostBegging, doing odd jobs, pawning, borrowing, pilfering? She might have prostituted herself, but there were other options - during the day, especially.
I just realized re-reading my post that based on my observation above, I don't think their killer was sexually motivated. I think the cutting was the goal, in fact Ive often wondered if there is a male victim somewhere in the records.Last edited by Michael W Richards; 03-16-2019, 09:46 AM.
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View PostNichols stated she had her doss money three times during the day, how did she get that money?
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Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I think Jon that there are sub-categories here, in that not all women who were out at night willingly solicited. The street walker, the Unfortunate, the brothel worker all worked in the same sector, how and why they, and when they did, what they did is important to distinguish. In these cases....its on record that the first 2 Canonicals stated that they were out to earn money for their beds, respectively. There is no such record for the rest. A streetwalker killed while sleeping off a binge night is a streetwalker, but that cannot be used in any attempt to suggest her trade led to her murder, that by her actions she was contributing to her death.
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Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
Indeed, and Mrs Vanturney had the same interpretation when she told the inquest that Barnett would not permit Mary Kelly "to go on the streets".
There is also a paragraph on the subject of vice in the Star of 12 Oct. 1888.
"Respecting the presence of so many prostitutes in Piccadilly and Regent-street, and the surprise expressed by the public from time to time that they are permitted to ply their calling, he says many of the public were unaware that such women are free to walk the streets so long as they behave themselves."
There is good reason why women of this calling are termed 'street-walkers', and it is well understood that the same phrase "walking the streets" when applied to a man carries a very different meaning as it does when applied to a woman.
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Reminds me of the Stones, 'cause in sleepy London town, there's just no place for a street walking man.
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I am reminded of the Chiffons' "Street Walking Guy," a song written by Dr Spooner.
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Originally posted by jmenges View PostThanks Gareth.
To further divert the thread here are my notes/thoughts on the topic that we never got around to discussing on the podcast. Note that in one version he equates “walking the streets” with having an “immoral purpose”.....etc.
JM
There is also a paragraph on the subject of vice in the Star of 12 Oct. 1888.
"Respecting the presence of so many prostitutes in Piccadilly and Regent-street, and the surprise expressed by the public from time to time that they are permitted to ply their calling, he says many of the public were unaware that such women are free to walk the streets so long as they behave themselves."
There is good reason why women of this calling are termed 'street-walkers', and it is well understood that the same phrase "walking the streets" when applied to a man carries a very different meaning as it does when applied to a woman.
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostI'm not sure that the Christ Church graveyard, later known as "Itchy Park", was used by rough sleepers to the same degree in 1888 as it was in subsequent years, as it was only cleared of its monuments and turned into a public garden in the 1890s. I'm happy to stand corrected on this, however.
That aside, there were plenty of porches, passageways and other covered places available, all of which would have been far more conducive to sleep than the exposed locations where the victims were found.
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