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Ripper victims were caught sleeping?

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  • Takod
    replied
    Originally posted by harry View Post
    Takod,
    What if we choose to disbelieve?
    Then a more convincing answer is required. These women would have had wants and desires that exceeded simply a room for the night, be they leaving the area entirely or getting some shiny new clothes - all of which would have required money.

    I'm not suggesting all of that money would have been gained via soliciting, perhaps stealing, flower selling and other methods of earning are to be employed, but even if they are living hand to mouth; it is not for lack of trying to do otherwise, and probably due to alcohol addiction that any possible financial gain may have been stopped.

    But not for lack of trying to amass money. No I'm not suggesting they were all working on extensive portfolios, I'm simply suggesting that too much is never enough.

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  • harry
    replied
    Takod,
    What if we choose to disbelieve?

    Leave a comment:


  • Takod
    replied
    Originally posted by harry View Post
    At least three of the victims had no need to solicit that night.Nichols,Eddowes and Kelly.Each had,or been offered a place to sleep.Chapman's time for that night had about run out,so her problem was the next night's doss.Which leaves Stride,and it is not known what her sleeping arrangements were.
    Both Eddowes and Kelly were seen with a man if we are to believe Lawende and Hutchinson. I'm particularly fond of the 'exonerating Michael Kidney' essay by Tom Wescott, which indicates that Stride could even have gone back there, especially once the whole "she was locked up" thing is dispelled from our imagination.

    But why are we of the belief that these women did not take every opportunity to earn when they could? Money is useful.

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  • Takod
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Nobody's suggesting that this hypothetical Good Samaritan made a habit of it, nor even that he lived locally. I've "passed through" a number of places to which I've rarely or never returned, and I've given money to homeless people who will never see me again, nor I them.
    Me too, however I take some issue with "Other options were still open" - I don't believe that they were. I still believe / think it is an extreme likelihood that Polly was soliciting since what better way to ask for money from a Good Samaritan than this?

    He will want nothing in return and will just give you the money, even if you are offering something in return.

    I believe this other option / route (say, begging) to be highly speculatory, because she would have done the very thing that would have earned her the most money. People, broadly, are self interested, and are more likely than not to exchange money for a service than they are to exchange money for nothing.

    If however she did meet a good Samaritan, soliciting is the very same thing as begging. Especially if they are of the belief that prostitution is a sin. In this case they (the charitable sort) are more likely to give her money than if she were begging.

    When I worked as a clown, you would tell your cheesy jokes to people one after the other, often repeating the silliest one liner say, 300 times in one event; The point of first contact I believe is very similar for a prostitute, or even a beggar, including the tone of voice and much else. It would be far more likely for a prostitute to spoil her custom if she begged first, and offered sexual favours later.

    You would say the very thing to evoke the most common reaction, you would also do your utmost to look the part (and probably smell a lot sweeter in their case).

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  • harry
    replied
    At least three of the victims had no need to solicit that night.Nichols,Eddowes and Kelly.Each had,or been offered a place to sleep.Chapman's time for that night had about run out,so her problem was the next night's doss.Which leaves Stride,and it is not known what her sleeping arrangements were.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
    But how many of those kind generous people you refer to would have been walking around the back streets of Whitechapel at that time of the morning
    Cross? Paul? Various policemen?

    I reiterate, I think that the probability that Polly was soliciting is high, but I don't take that as proof that she was. Other options were still open, so I don't buy the "Well, how else could she have made her money?" line of argument.
    and besides with the reputation those streets had would anyone with money in their pockets
    I'm only talking about someone who could spare three measly pence to help someone out.

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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Nobody's suggesting that this hypothetical Good Samaritan made a habit of it, nor even that he lived locally. I've "passed through" a number of places to which I've rarely or never returned, and I've given money to homeless people who will never see me again, nor I them.
    But how many of those kind generous people you refer to would have been walking around the back streets of Whitechapel at that time of the morning, and besides with the reputation those streets had would anyone with money in their pockets run the gauntlet of the criminals and thieves that we are told were to be found in abundance in Whitechapel

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Takod View Post
    Since it was dark I am of no doubt that she looked 20 years younger. Perhaps some people may have offered charity, but I'd have thought that offering charity to the local prostitutes or homeless or seriously unfortunate would have given you a reputation as an easy mark as a charitable sort.
    Nobody's suggesting that this hypothetical Good Samaritan made a habit of it, nor even that he lived locally. I've "passed through" a number of places to which I've rarely or never returned, and I've given money to homeless people who will never see me again, nor I them.

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  • Takod
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    Why should we imagine that men abroad in the streets of Whitechapel at 3 in the morning would be significantly more likely to want to have sex with Polly than they would to hand her a few coppers out of charity?
    Since it was dark I am of no doubt that she looked 20 years younger. Perhaps some people may have offered charity, but I'd have thought that offering charity to the local prostitutes or homeless or seriously unfortunate would have given you a reputation as an easy mark as a charitable sort.

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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
    Because they are more likely to desperate people than charitable people. Late partygoers, homeless, or grim early workers.

    When people have a few drinks inside them (late partygoers) they are often more generous than they would be if sober. Why would early morning workers be more ‘grim’ than those at other times? Horse slaughterers, men bringing hay or other produce in from the country, market workers in stable employment etc might have had a penny or two to throw at an importunate beggar.



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  • drstrange169
    replied
    Because they are more likely to desperate people than charitable people. Late partygoers, homeless, or grim early workers.

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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Why should we imagine that men abroad in the streets of Whitechapel at 3 in the morning would be significantly more likely to want to have sex with Polly than they would to hand her a few coppers out of charity?
    Last edited by MrBarnett; 03-16-2019, 11:58 PM.

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Yes, of course we are entitled to draw an inference, Trevor, and I'd say that the one you've drawn above is very likely. The fact that you've acknowledged that there were alternative options, and weighed up the relative likelihoods of each, is exactly what we should be doing. Thanks.
    Last edited by Sam Flynn; 03-16-2019, 08:02 PM.

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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    I'm not disputing any of this, Trevor, but the answer to "how else could Polly have made her doss money three times that day?" is "quite a few ways, actually". Prostitution was certainly one of the means open to her, but it wasn't the only one, nor was it inevitable.
    I am not disagreeing with you, but the point has been made before that the other options open to her to obtain money would not be so readily available at that time of the morning especially in Bucks Row or the surrounding area. So we are entitled to draw an inference from all of this surely that she was looking to earn money by offering a sexual service.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    I'm not disputing any of this, Trevor, but the answer to "how else could Polly have made her doss money three times that day?" is "quite a few ways, actually". Prostitution was certainly one of the means open to her, but it wasn't the only one, nor was it inevitable.

    Leave a comment:

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