Ripper victims were caught sleeping?

[MrBarnett]

Hi gary
but put yourself in her shoes. Would you really make that comment about your jolly bonnett as going to help you make some money by begging by appearing more respectable and therefore deservimg of charity? To me its rather clear, shes making that comment because its going to make her more attractive to a respective punter, no?

It was just a throwaway humorous comment, we can’t know what she meant by it. If we could see the bonnet, we might have a better idea.

I’’’m playing devil’s advocate here, because on balance I think Polly probably was soliciting on the night of her murder. Her pals at 18, Thrawl Street reportedly described her as an ‘unfortunate’, and the most likely reason she had moved away from there to another doss house which accommodated men and women (35, Dorset Street, perhaps?) was presumably so she could take clients back there and potentially earn a bit more from her activities.

[Abby Normal]

Abby/Joshua,

Is the bonnet described as ‘new’ in a contemporary report?

What a bonnet might have done is made Polly look more respectable, and therefore more deserving of charity.

Hi gary
but put yourself in her shoes. Would you really make that comment about your jolly bonnett as going to help you make some money by begging by appearing more respectable and therefore deservimg of charity? To me its rather clear, shes making that comment because its going to make her more attractive to a respective punter, no?

[MrBarnett]

Good point Abby. Although maybe she was planning to do a bit of busking and use her bonnet to collect the pennies?

Abby/Joshua,

Is the bonnet described as ‘new’ in a contemporary report?

What a bonnet might have done is made Polly look more respectable, and therefore more deserving of charity.

[Yabs]

Hello everyone.

A quick question....

What do people make of the fact that the deputy of Crossinghams lodging house stated that Annie Chapman would have a soldier or pensioner staying with her at weekends?

Would it be wrong of us to infer that they were clients?

Maybe they were just friends or perhaps this question has already been answered. I feel almost guilty assuming up to this point that they were clients.

[Joshua Rogan]

has a pretty new hat-not indicative someone so desperate for money they need to go beg for some and proudly sporting a new hat isn't going to elicit much sympathy.

Good point Abby. Although maybe she was planning to do a bit of busking and use her bonnet to collect the pennies?

[Abby Normal]

while I think all the C5 were prostitutes either currently or had been previously, I don't think they were all actively soliciting the night they were murdered. I think Stride and Kelly were probably not.

Nichols though seems obvious, she was out looking for money in the late evening and said she would have her doss money soon because she said look at the jolly bonnet I have. I think that statement goes more to looking attractive and so being able to get a customer. why would she say that if she was out begging? she has a pretty new hat-not indicative someone so desperate for money they need to go beg for some and proudly sporting a new hat isn't going to elicit much sympathy.

[Joshua Rogan]

Holland believed that Polly went off looking for money and would return to ‘her house’: 18, Thrawl Street. What Holland was offering was to share the cost of a ‘double’. I don’t see how it can be read any other way.

Would that have saved either of them any money though? I thought the cost per occupant was usually the same whether single (4d) or double (8d). Besides, Mrs Holland was staying at a house for single women, would they even have had any doubles?

"Coroner: Did she say where she was going that night?
Witness: No. I persuaded her to come home with me as she was the worse for drink, and I would get her lodgings where I was living, but she refused to come."

Maybe Mrs Holland was offering to pay, or hoped to persuade the deputy to let Polly stay the night on credit. But I suspect Polly was simply too proud or embarrassed to accept her offer. Or perhaps she was too polite to say that she preferred the other house?

It's also not entirely clear (to me) whether Polly was intending to return to their previous lodging house that night, or merely some night in the near future.

[Sam Flynn]

What Holland was offering was to share the cost of a ‘double’.

I'm thinking the same, Gary.

[MrBarnett]

As I noted a few days back, it's not recorded either way. Perhaps Holland did offer to pay but it appears that she neither volunteered the information nor was the question asked.

Holland believed that Polly went off looking for money and would return to ‘her house’: 18, Thrawl Street. What Holland was offering was to share the cost of a ‘double’. I don’t see how it can be read any other way.

[MrBarnett]

From the way the conversation was reported in the East London Observer, it seems Polly left Holland in search of money to pay for her bed at 18, Thrawl Street.

[Sam Flynn]

Harry,
Did Holland offer to pay for Polly’’s doss?

As I noted a few days back, it's not recorded either way. Perhaps Holland did offer to pay but it appears that she neither volunteered the information nor was the question asked.

[MrBarnett]

Takod.
What is a more convincing answer to Polly prostituting herself at the time she was killed?If her desire was to earn money for a doss,then that desire was satisfied when she was offered a place to sleep by Holland.No need for money after that encounter. Convince me otherwise.

Harry,

Did Holland offer to pay for Polly’’s doss?

Gary

[harry]

Takod.
What is a more convincing answer to Polly prostituting herself at the time she was killed?If her desire was to earn money for a doss,then that desire was satisfied when she was offered a place to sleep by Holland.No need for money after that encounter. Convince me otherwise.

[Takod]

You must consider the fear element in these cases, as well as the histories.

Fear is a very valid point. What if Kelly had led him back to her house because she knew that all of the murders happened outside?

In Mary Kellys case there is no compelling reason to go back out after arriving home Thursday night, and a history of running arrears that goes back to previous locations.

Someone can say one thing and do another, we're creatures of habit, and I'm guilty of doing that, too. "I really should stop smoking/drinking" - whilst lighting a cigarette or pouring a drink, of course.

I think that the term Unfortunate refers to women who, do to unfortunate circumstances, occasionally had to resort to prostitution for food and shelter. They had no help, no one to provide for them.

Precisely, and what do you do when the chips are down and everything looks bleak, roof (temporary) over your head or not? You gamble! The amygdala doesn't respond logically or sanely to precarious circumstance, the sufferer simply feels threatened and acts irrationally.

Of the Canonical Five I would say only 2 women seem to me to make the bulk of their income soliciting... Polly and Mary. The others I would categorize as Unfortunate, which in Liz Strides case, is a choice. She chose to leave that kind of work behind her in her youth. She had her name stricken from a Prostitutes registry in Goteborg before coming to London as a nanny.

I have not disagreed that broadly that their major income during the day would have not been soliciting, but in a time of financial pressure and external worries...

You see, the kind of work prostitutes do is chosen by few, and repulsive to most. Working when they didn't have to isn't something I think youll see often in these cases. Polly only went back out to earn again because she wanted to sleep indoors.

Kelly has been quoted as saying she wanted to pack it in, but she also seemed a headstrong sort, she also wanted to move, which in my earlier post I alluded to as perhaps a reason for getting it over with -

[Michael W Richards]

Then a more convincing answer is required. These women would have had wants and desires that exceeded simply a room for the night, be they leaving the area entirely or getting some shiny new clothes - all of which would have required money.

I'm not suggesting all of that money would have been gained via soliciting, perhaps stealing, flower selling and other methods of earning are to be employed, but even if they are living hand to mouth; it is not for lack of trying to do otherwise, and probably due to alcohol addiction that any possible financial gain may have been stopped.

But not for lack of trying to amass money. No I'm not suggesting they were all working on extensive portfolios, I'm simply suggesting that too much is never enough.

You must consider the fear element in these cases, as well as the histories. In Mary Kellys case there is no compelling reason to go back out after arriving home Thursday night, and a history of running arrears that goes back to previous locations. I think that the term Unfortunate refers to women who, do to unfortunate circumstances, occasionally had to resort to prostitution for food and shelter. They had no help, no one to provide for them. Well, look at Barnett. He comes back nearly every day to give Mary money after he moved out. Or look at Annies pensioner. Liz Stride had "decent" work in the months leading up to her death, and Kate had only just returned from hopping and, as has been mentioned, and she still had a place to sleep.

Of the Canonical Five I would say only 2 women seem to me to make the bulk of their income soliciting... Polly and Mary. The others I would categorize as Unfortunate, which in Liz Strides case, is a choice. She chose to leave that kind of work behind her in her youth. She had her name stricken from a Prostitutes registry in Goteborg before coming to London as a nanny.

You see, the kind of work prostitutes do is chosen by few, and repulsive to most. Working when they didn't have to isn't something I think youll see often in these cases. Polly only went back out to earn again because she wanted to sleep indoors.