Ripper victims were caught sleeping?

[MrBarnett]

Takod.
What is a more convincing answer to Polly prostituting herself at the time she was killed?If her desire was to earn money for a doss,then that desire was satisfied when she was offered a place to sleep by Holland.No need for money after that encounter. Convince me otherwise.

Harry,

Did Holland offer to pay for Polly’’s doss?

Gary

[Sam Flynn]

Harry,
Did Holland offer to pay for Polly’’s doss?

As I noted a few days back, it's not recorded either way. Perhaps Holland did offer to pay but it appears that she neither volunteered the information nor was the question asked.

[MrBarnett]

From the way the conversation was reported in the East London Observer, it seems Polly left Holland in search of money to pay for her bed at 18, Thrawl Street.

[MrBarnett]

As I noted a few days back, it's not recorded either way. Perhaps Holland did offer to pay but it appears that she neither volunteered the information nor was the question asked.

Holland believed that Polly went off looking for money and would return to ‘her house’: 18, Thrawl Street. What Holland was offering was to share the cost of a ‘double’. I don’t see how it can be read any other way.

[Sam Flynn]

What Holland was offering was to share the cost of a ‘double’.

I'm thinking the same, Gary.

[Joshua Rogan]

Holland believed that Polly went off looking for money and would return to ‘her house’: 18, Thrawl Street. What Holland was offering was to share the cost of a ‘double’. I don’t see how it can be read any other way.

Would that have saved either of them any money though? I thought the cost per occupant was usually the same whether single (4d) or double (8d). Besides, Mrs Holland was staying at a house for single women, would they even have had any doubles?

"Coroner: Did she say where she was going that night?
Witness: No. I persuaded her to come home with me as she was the worse for drink, and I would get her lodgings where I was living, but she refused to come."

Maybe Mrs Holland was offering to pay, or hoped to persuade the deputy to let Polly stay the night on credit. But I suspect Polly was simply too proud or embarrassed to accept her offer. Or perhaps she was too polite to say that she preferred the other house?

It's also not entirely clear (to me) whether Polly was intending to return to their previous lodging house that night, or merely some night in the near future.

[Abby Normal]

while I think all the C5 were prostitutes either currently or had been previously, I don't think they were all actively soliciting the night they were murdered. I think Stride and Kelly were probably not.

Nichols though seems obvious, she was out looking for money in the late evening and said she would have her doss money soon because she said look at the jolly bonnet I have. I think that statement goes more to looking attractive and so being able to get a customer. why would she say that if she was out begging? she has a pretty new hat-not indicative someone so desperate for money they need to go beg for some and proudly sporting a new hat isn't going to elicit much sympathy.

[Joshua Rogan]

has a pretty new hat-not indicative someone so desperate for money they need to go beg for some and proudly sporting a new hat isn't going to elicit much sympathy.

Good point Abby. Although maybe she was planning to do a bit of busking and use her bonnet to collect the pennies?

[Yabs]

Hello everyone.

A quick question....

What do people make of the fact that the deputy of Crossinghams lodging house stated that Annie Chapman would have a soldier or pensioner staying with her at weekends?

Would it be wrong of us to infer that they were clients?

Maybe they were just friends or perhaps this question has already been answered. I feel almost guilty assuming up to this point that they were clients.

[MrBarnett]

Good point Abby. Although maybe she was planning to do a bit of busking and use her bonnet to collect the pennies?

Abby/Joshua,

Is the bonnet described as ‘new’ in a contemporary report?

What a bonnet might have done is made Polly look more respectable, and therefore more deserving of charity.

[Abby Normal]

Abby/Joshua,

Is the bonnet described as ‘new’ in a contemporary report?

What a bonnet might have done is made Polly look more respectable, and therefore more deserving of charity.

Hi gary
but put yourself in her shoes. Would you really make that comment about your jolly bonnett as going to help you make some money by begging by appearing more respectable and therefore deservimg of charity? To me its rather clear, shes making that comment because its going to make her more attractive to a respective punter, no?

[MrBarnett]

Hi gary
but put yourself in her shoes. Would you really make that comment about your jolly bonnett as going to help you make some money by begging by appearing more respectable and therefore deservimg of charity? To me its rather clear, shes making that comment because its going to make her more attractive to a respective punter, no?

It was just a throwaway humorous comment, we can’t know what she meant by it. If we could see the bonnet, we might have a better idea.

I’’’m playing devil’s advocate here, because on balance I think Polly probably was soliciting on the night of her murder. Her pals at 18, Thrawl Street reportedly described her as an ‘unfortunate’, and the most likely reason she had moved away from there to another doss house which accommodated men and women (35, Dorset Street, perhaps?) was presumably so she could take clients back there and potentially earn a bit more from her activities.

[Joshua Rogan]

doss house which accommodated men and women (35, Dorset Street, perhaps?)

Wasn't that the address given on her death certificate? But according to Mrs Holland in The ELO;

"...she told me she had altered the place where she was living.
The Coroner: Did she tell you where that was?
Witness: No; but I think it was in the next street. Flower and Dean-street, I understood.
...she said there were too many men and women at the place she was staying at, and she didn't like to go there.
The Coroner: Where was that?
Witness: I thought from what she told me that it was "The White House.""

[MrBarnett]

Wasn't that the address given on her death certificate? But according to Mrs Holland in The ELO;

"...she told me she had altered the place where she was living.
The Coroner: Did she tell you where that was?
Witness: No; but I think it was in the next street. Flower and Dean-street, I understood.
...she said there were too many men and women at the place she was staying at, and she didn't like to go there.
The Coroner: Where was that?
Witness: I thought from what she told me that it was "The White House.""

Yes, Holland seemed uncertain as to even which street it was in, but the death cert is unambiguous. Clearly from her comments, Polly was suggesting she would prefer to return to Wilmotts to share a room with Holland, but she still had to go out and earn more money.

[Sam Flynn]

Is the bonnet described as "new" in a contemporary report?

I don't believe it is, Gary. The "jolly NEW bonnet" appears to be a modern elaboration. The original reports simply say "see what a jolly bonnet I've got now".