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  • Why should we imagine that men abroad in the streets of Whitechapel at 3 in the morning would be significantly more likely to want to have sex with Polly than they would to hand her a few coppers out of charity?
    Last edited by MrBarnett; 03-16-2019, 11:58 PM.

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    • Because they are more likely to desperate people than charitable people. Late partygoers, homeless, or grim early workers.
      dustymiller
      aka drstrange

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      • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
        Because they are more likely to desperate people than charitable people. Late partygoers, homeless, or grim early workers.

        When people have a few drinks inside them (late partygoers) they are often more generous than they would be if sober. Why would early morning workers be more ‘grim’ than those at other times? Horse slaughterers, men bringing hay or other produce in from the country, market workers in stable employment etc might have had a penny or two to throw at an importunate beggar.



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        • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
          Why should we imagine that men abroad in the streets of Whitechapel at 3 in the morning would be significantly more likely to want to have sex with Polly than they would to hand her a few coppers out of charity?
          Since it was dark I am of no doubt that she looked 20 years younger. Perhaps some people may have offered charity, but I'd have thought that offering charity to the local prostitutes or homeless or seriously unfortunate would have given you a reputation as an easy mark as a charitable sort.

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          • Originally posted by Takod View Post
            Since it was dark I am of no doubt that she looked 20 years younger. Perhaps some people may have offered charity, but I'd have thought that offering charity to the local prostitutes or homeless or seriously unfortunate would have given you a reputation as an easy mark as a charitable sort.
            Nobody's suggesting that this hypothetical Good Samaritan made a habit of it, nor even that he lived locally. I've "passed through" a number of places to which I've rarely or never returned, and I've given money to homeless people who will never see me again, nor I them.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              Nobody's suggesting that this hypothetical Good Samaritan made a habit of it, nor even that he lived locally. I've "passed through" a number of places to which I've rarely or never returned, and I've given money to homeless people who will never see me again, nor I them.
              But how many of those kind generous people you refer to would have been walking around the back streets of Whitechapel at that time of the morning, and besides with the reputation those streets had would anyone with money in their pockets run the gauntlet of the criminals and thieves that we are told were to be found in abundance in Whitechapel

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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              • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                But how many of those kind generous people you refer to would have been walking around the back streets of Whitechapel at that time of the morning
                Cross? Paul? Various policemen?

                I reiterate, I think that the probability that Polly was soliciting is high, but I don't take that as proof that she was. Other options were still open, so I don't buy the "Well, how else could she have made her money?" line of argument.
                and besides with the reputation those streets had would anyone with money in their pockets
                I'm only talking about someone who could spare three measly pence to help someone out.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                • At least three of the victims had no need to solicit that night.Nichols,Eddowes and Kelly.Each had,or been offered a place to sleep.Chapman's time for that night had about run out,so her problem was the next night's doss.Which leaves Stride,and it is not known what her sleeping arrangements were.

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                  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                    Nobody's suggesting that this hypothetical Good Samaritan made a habit of it, nor even that he lived locally. I've "passed through" a number of places to which I've rarely or never returned, and I've given money to homeless people who will never see me again, nor I them.
                    Me too, however I take some issue with "Other options were still open" - I don't believe that they were. I still believe / think it is an extreme likelihood that Polly was soliciting since what better way to ask for money from a Good Samaritan than this?

                    He will want nothing in return and will just give you the money, even if you are offering something in return.

                    I believe this other option / route (say, begging) to be highly speculatory, because she would have done the very thing that would have earned her the most money. People, broadly, are self interested, and are more likely than not to exchange money for a service than they are to exchange money for nothing.

                    If however she did meet a good Samaritan, soliciting is the very same thing as begging. Especially if they are of the belief that prostitution is a sin. In this case they (the charitable sort) are more likely to give her money than if she were begging.

                    When I worked as a clown, you would tell your cheesy jokes to people one after the other, often repeating the silliest one liner say, 300 times in one event; The point of first contact I believe is very similar for a prostitute, or even a beggar, including the tone of voice and much else. It would be far more likely for a prostitute to spoil her custom if she begged first, and offered sexual favours later.

                    You would say the very thing to evoke the most common reaction, you would also do your utmost to look the part (and probably smell a lot sweeter in their case).

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                    • Originally posted by harry View Post
                      At least three of the victims had no need to solicit that night.Nichols,Eddowes and Kelly.Each had,or been offered a place to sleep.Chapman's time for that night had about run out,so her problem was the next night's doss.Which leaves Stride,and it is not known what her sleeping arrangements were.
                      Both Eddowes and Kelly were seen with a man if we are to believe Lawende and Hutchinson. I'm particularly fond of the 'exonerating Michael Kidney' essay by Tom Wescott, which indicates that Stride could even have gone back there, especially once the whole "she was locked up" thing is dispelled from our imagination.

                      But why are we of the belief that these women did not take every opportunity to earn when they could? Money is useful.

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                      • Takod,
                        What if we choose to disbelieve?

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                        • Originally posted by harry View Post
                          Takod,
                          What if we choose to disbelieve?
                          Then a more convincing answer is required. These women would have had wants and desires that exceeded simply a room for the night, be they leaving the area entirely or getting some shiny new clothes - all of which would have required money.

                          I'm not suggesting all of that money would have been gained via soliciting, perhaps stealing, flower selling and other methods of earning are to be employed, but even if they are living hand to mouth; it is not for lack of trying to do otherwise, and probably due to alcohol addiction that any possible financial gain may have been stopped.

                          But not for lack of trying to amass money. No I'm not suggesting they were all working on extensive portfolios, I'm simply suggesting that too much is never enough.

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                          • Originally posted by Takod View Post

                            Then a more convincing answer is required. These women would have had wants and desires that exceeded simply a room for the night, be they leaving the area entirely or getting some shiny new clothes - all of which would have required money.

                            I'm not suggesting all of that money would have been gained via soliciting, perhaps stealing, flower selling and other methods of earning are to be employed, but even if they are living hand to mouth; it is not for lack of trying to do otherwise, and probably due to alcohol addiction that any possible financial gain may have been stopped.

                            But not for lack of trying to amass money. No I'm not suggesting they were all working on extensive portfolios, I'm simply suggesting that too much is never enough.
                            You must consider the fear element in these cases, as well as the histories. In Mary Kellys case there is no compelling reason to go back out after arriving home Thursday night, and a history of running arrears that goes back to previous locations. I think that the term Unfortunate refers to women who, do to unfortunate circumstances, occasionally had to resort to prostitution for food and shelter. They had no help, no one to provide for them. Well, look at Barnett. He comes back nearly every day to give Mary money after he moved out. Or look at Annies pensioner. Liz Stride had "decent" work in the months leading up to her death, and Kate had only just returned from hopping and, as has been mentioned, and she still had a place to sleep.

                            Of the Canonical Five I would say only 2 women seem to me to make the bulk of their income soliciting... Polly and Mary. The others I would categorize as Unfortunate, which in Liz Strides case, is a choice. She chose to leave that kind of work behind her in her youth. She had her name stricken from a Prostitutes registry in Goteborg before coming to London as a nanny.

                            You see, the kind of work prostitutes do is chosen by few, and repulsive to most. Working when they didn't have to isn't something I think youll see often in these cases. Polly only went back out to earn again because she wanted to sleep indoors.
                            Michael Richards

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                            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              You must consider the fear element in these cases, as well as the histories.
                              Fear is a very valid point. What if Kelly had led him back to her house because she knew that all of the murders happened outside?

                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              In Mary Kellys case there is no compelling reason to go back out after arriving home Thursday night, and a history of running arrears that goes back to previous locations.
                              Someone can say one thing and do another, we're creatures of habit, and I'm guilty of doing that, too. "I really should stop smoking/drinking" - whilst lighting a cigarette or pouring a drink, of course.

                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              I think that the term Unfortunate refers to women who, do to unfortunate circumstances, occasionally had to resort to prostitution for food and shelter. They had no help, no one to provide for them.
                              Precisely, and what do you do when the chips are down and everything looks bleak, roof (temporary) over your head or not? You gamble! The amygdala doesn't respond logically or sanely to precarious circumstance, the sufferer simply feels threatened and acts irrationally.

                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              Of the Canonical Five I would say only 2 women seem to me to make the bulk of their income soliciting... Polly and Mary. The others I would categorize as Unfortunate, which in Liz Strides case, is a choice. She chose to leave that kind of work behind her in her youth. She had her name stricken from a Prostitutes registry in Goteborg before coming to London as a nanny.
                              I have not disagreed that broadly that their major income during the day would have not been soliciting, but in a time of financial pressure and external worries...

                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              You see, the kind of work prostitutes do is chosen by few, and repulsive to most. Working when they didn't have to isn't something I think youll see often in these cases. Polly only went back out to earn again because she wanted to sleep indoors.
                              Kelly has been quoted as saying she wanted to pack it in, but she also seemed a headstrong sort, she also wanted to move, which in my earlier post I alluded to as perhaps a reason for getting it over with -

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                              • Takod.
                                What is a more convincing answer to Polly prostituting herself at the time she was killed?If her desire was to earn money for a doss,then that desire was satisfied when she was offered a place to sleep by Holland.No need for money after that encounter. Convince me otherwise.

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