Ripper victims were caught sleeping?

[Robert]

I am reminded of the Chiffons' "Street Walking Guy," a song written by Dr Spooner.

[Joshua Rogan]

Reminds me of the Stones, 'cause in sleepy London town, there's just no place for a street walking man.

[Michael W Richards]

Indeed, and Mrs Vanturney had the same interpretation when she told the inquest that Barnett would not permit Mary Kelly "to go on the streets".

There is also a paragraph on the subject of vice in the Star of 12 Oct. 1888.
"Respecting the presence of so many prostitutes in Piccadilly and Regent-street, and the surprise expressed by the public from time to time that they are permitted to ply their calling, he says many of the public were unaware that such women are free to walk the streets so long as they behave themselves."

There is good reason why women of this calling are termed 'street-walkers', and it is well understood that the same phrase "walking the streets" when applied to a man carries a very different meaning as it does when applied to a woman.

I think Jon that there are sub-categories here, in that not all women who were out at night willingly solicited. The street walker, the Unfortunate, the brothel worker all worked in the same sector, how and why they, and when they did, what they did is important to distinguish. In these cases....its on record that the first 2 Canonicals stated that they were out to earn money for their beds, respectively. There is no such record for the rest. A streetwalker killed while sleeping off a binge night is a streetwalker, but that cannot be used in any attempt to suggest her trade led to her murder, that by her actions she was contributing to her death.

[Trevor Marriott]

I think Jon that there are sub-categories here, in that not all women who were out at night willingly solicited. The street walker, the Unfortunate, the brothel worker all worked in the same sector, how and why they, and when they did, what they did is important to distinguish. In these cases....its on record that the first 2 Canonicals stated that they were out to earn money for their beds, respectively. There is no such record for the rest. A streetwalker killed while sleeping off a binge night is a streetwalker, but that cannot be used in any attempt to suggest her trade led to her murder, that by her actions she was contributing to her death.

Well we all know that they met their killer, but under what circumstances we can only draw inferences from what we know from witness testimony. From those inferences we can in my opinion safely say that they were not asleep in the street at the time the met their deaths, and may have been trying to get money by casual prostitution. Nichols stated she had her doss monet three times during the day, how did she get that money?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

Nichols stated she had her doss money three times during the day, how did she get that money?

Begging, doing odd jobs, pawning, borrowing, pilfering? She might have prostituted herself, but there were other options - during the day, especially.

[Michael W Richards]

Begging, doing odd jobs, pawning, borrowing, pilfering? She might have prostituted herself, but there were other options - during the day, especially.

All true of course Sam, but I believe in Nichols case we have sufficient circumstantial evidence to suggest she was actively soliciting. As in Annies case, both confided to friends that they needed to make their doss. I find it interesting that with these 2 victims in particular there seems to have been a diminished combatant attraction for the killer. Polly was fairly obviously drunk, and Annie was ill. Neither would be much problem to subdue.

I just realized re-reading my post that based on my observation above, I don't think their killer was sexually motivated. I think the cutting was the goal, in fact Ive often wondered if there is a male victim somewhere in the records.

[Sam Flynn]

All true of course Sam, but I believe in Nichols case we have sufficient circumstantial evidence to suggest she was actively soliciting.

There is some evidence, indeed one explicit statement to the effect that Nichols lived the life of an unfortunate, but we don't know that she was actively soliciting in the hours leading to her death; it's still supposition, however well informed by circumstantial evidence. Personally, I don't have an issue with the idea - indeed, I think it likely on balance - but we must be cognisant that she could have obtained the money by other means, especially during the daylight hours. It's the assumption that she "must" have made her money by prostitution that has made us easy meat for our critics, and we need to be careful.

[Michael W Richards]

There is some evidence, indeed one explicit statement to the effect that Nichols lived the life of an unfortunate, but we don't know that she was actively soliciting in the hours leading to her death; it's still supposition, however well informed by circumstantial evidence. Personally, I don't have an issue with the idea - indeed, I think it likely on balance - but we must be cognisant that she could have obtained the money by other means, especially during the daylight hours. It's the assumption that she "must" have made her money by prostitution that has made us easy meat for our critics, and we need to be careful.

This is from Lloyds Weekly on September 9th Sam;

"For the last nine months she had been sleeping at a lodging-house, 35, Dorset-street, Spitalfields, and she was there as recently as two o'clock yesterday morning eating some potatoes. She had not, however, the money to pay for her bed, and at two o'clock she left with the remark to the keeper of the place, "I'll soon be back again; I'll soon get the money for my doss."

I use this to show that Polly believed she could acquire doss "soon", and that the only way she could predictably earn money at 2am is by prostitution.

[jmenges]

It's the assumption that she "must" have made her money by prostitution that has made us easy meat for our critics, and we need to be careful.

But that's our critics twisting what we're arguing against. What we're being targeted for is having the knowledge of the evidence that she at any time in her life resorted to 'subsistence prostitution' (coined, I think, by Mark Ripper) and there's plenty of evidence for that.

JM

[Sam Flynn]

This is from Lloyds Weekly on September 9th Sam;

"For the last nine months she had been sleeping at a lodging-house, 35, Dorset-street, Spitalfields, and she was there as recently as two o'clock yesterday morning eating some potatoes. She had not, however, the money to pay for her bed, and at two o'clock she left with the remark to the keeper of the place, "I'll soon be back again; I'll soon get the money for my doss."

I use this to show that Polly believed she could acquire doss "soon", and that the only way she could predictably earn money at 2am is by prostitution.

Please note that I originally responded to Trevor's question about how else could Polly have gotten her doss money three times that day, not at two in the morning. Even at that early hour, it's possible that she could have buttonholed a stranger in the street and begged for threepence, or scoured the gutters looking for lost pennies. To be clear, I don't think she did - but it's possible, and I'd avoid using "how else?" statements as if no other possibilities exist.

Incidentally, if she had found some stray pennies, successfully begged for her doss, or was given the same voluntarily by a passing charitable person, would she stayed out looking for a "customer", or would she have headed to her doss-house and paid for her bed? A thought-experiment, nothing more, but an interesting one I hope.

[Sam Flynn]

What we're being targeted for is having the knowledge of the evidence that she at any time in her life resorted to 'subsistence prostitution' (coined, I think, by Mark Ripper) and there's plenty of evidence for that.

Indeed, Jon, but I was just raising a flag about "how else?" statements, when there are still "elses" to consider.

I liked Mark Ripper's coinage of "subsistence prostitution", and I'd only observe that the plight of some was so dire that "subsistence just-about-anything" (prostitution, begging, theft, selling one's boots...) could have been necessary on occasion.

[Trevor Marriott]

Indeed, Jon, but I was just raising a flag about "how else?" statements, when there are still "elses" to consider.

I liked Mark Ripper's coinage of "subsistence prostitution", and I'd only observe that the plight of some was so dire that "subsistence just-about-anything" (prostitution, begging, theft, selling one's boots...) could have been necessary on occasion.

But it is documented that many normal family women would causally prostitute themselves to keep a roof over their head or a family from starving, so how much more difficult would it have been for these unfortunates like polly to survive without using the same means to get money?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

I'm not disputing any of this, Trevor, but the answer to "how else could Polly have made her doss money three times that day?" is "quite a few ways, actually". Prostitution was certainly one of the means open to her, but it wasn't the only one, nor was it inevitable.

[Trevor Marriott]

I'm not disputing any of this, Trevor, but the answer to "how else could Polly have made her doss money three times that day?" is "quite a few ways, actually". Prostitution was certainly one of the means open to her, but it wasn't the only one, nor was it inevitable.

I am not disagreeing with you, but the point has been made before that the other options open to her to obtain money would not be so readily available at that time of the morning especially in Bucks Row or the surrounding area. So we are entitled to draw an inference from all of this surely that she was looking to earn money by offering a sexual service.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, of course we are entitled to draw an inference, Trevor, and I'd say that the one you've drawn above is very likely. The fact that you've acknowledged that there were alternative options, and weighed up the relative likelihoods of each, is exactly what we should be doing. Thanks.