Stride and Chapman , same address ?

[moonbegger]

Hello all ,
Here is something that has been playing on my mind for some time now , and i hope as ripper scholars you can help me out with it. Is it just another generally accepted huge slice of coincidence pie , that according to both Coroner Baxter and the Daily news of 6th oct 1888 , that Liz Stride had been living with Michel Kidney at 35 dorset street up until only days before her murder , the same lodging house where Annie Chapman had lived only months prior to her murder .. is this whole coincidence and luck thing pushing the boundaries of common sense ? just a thought

moonbegger .

[Simon Wood]

Hi Moonbegger,

The entire Ripper mystery pushes the boundaries of common sense.

Regards,

Simon

[ChrisGeorge]

Hello all ,
Here is something that has been playing on my mind for some time now , and i hope as ripper scholars you can help me out with it. Is it just another generally accepted huge slice of coincidence pie , that according to both Coroner Baxter and the Daily news of 6th oct 1888 , that Liz Stride had been living with Michel Kidney at 35 dorset street up until only days before her murder , the same lodging house where Annie Chapman had lived only months prior to her murder .. is this whole coincidence and luck thing pushing the boundaries of common sense ? just a thought

moonbegger .

Hello moonbegger

When we talk about the victims in the Whitechapel murders, we are talking about people who were down on their luck. People who often found themselves in common lodging houses that were shared by dozens of people on a single night. Also since we are talking about an area that was only a single square mile, it might stretch credibility if the women's lives did not intersect in some manner. That having been said, they could have been at the same lodging houses on separate nights and still not know each other. It has never been proven positively that any of the women knew each other. We presume they possibly did know each other at least by sight but cannot know it for sure.

Best regards

Chris

[John Wheat]

To Simon
I have to disagree the entire Ripper Mystery does not push the boundaries of common sense but the ridiculous theories and suspects do.
John

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

according to both Coroner Baxter and the Daily news of 6th oct 1888 , that Liz Stride had been living with Michel Kidney at 35 dorset street up until only days before her murder , the same lodging house where Annie Chapman had lived only months prior to her murder .. is this whole coincidence and luck thing pushing the boundaries of common sense ?

At the time of the inquest Kidney stated that he was living at 38 Dorset Street, not 35, but it isn't clear whether this was the address that he and Stride supposedly shared on Dorset.

Stride had lived at 32 Flower and Dean Street and Stride and Kidney had lived at 35 and then 36 Devonshire Street, Commercial Road, and there is a usually ignored question as to whether they lived on Dorset Street at all or whether this was a mix up with Devonshire. Either way, they did not live at 35 Dorset Street.

Wolf.

[moonbegger]

Here is the thing Mr Wolf ... At Strides inquest Michel Kidney statement makes it clear that stride had been living with him for three years , give and take a few months when her bouts of drunkenness would take her of to her temporary doss house at 32 flower and dean street .. Elizabeth Tanner's statement also bares this out , even more so when she speaks of the fact that Stride left the man she was living with ( Michel Kidney ) on thursday to come and stay at our house ( 32 F+D ) . So at the inquest Kidney's address is given as 38 Dorset street .. but in the Daily News of 6th oct his address is given as 35 Dorset st ! So with all the " maybes " and " probably " and conjecture aside .. its a toss up between 35 and 38 ! either way i think it stretches the boundaries of coincidence .

cheers
Moonbegger.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Moonbeggar, consider the following, if you haven't already.

1) Eddowes and Stride were BOTH living on Flower and Dean Street.
2) A turnoff of F&D Street was George Street. It connected F&D to the main road. At the time of her murder in April, Emma Smith lived at 18 George Street. Martha Tabram, at the time of her murder, lived next door at 19 George Street. This was all of 100 yards away from Dorset Street.
3) Mary Kelly previously lived in George Street.

As cool as all this sounds, all it actually means is that these women were constantly moving from one doss house to the next, and all in the same square mile or so. You could have opened a window and spit, and you would have hit someone who had lived on Flower and Dean Street and/or Dorset Street. But here's another cool one.

4) On the night of her murder, Eddowes gave the police the false address of 6 Fashion Street, while at the same time, Stride lied to Elizabeth Tanner and said she and Kidney lived on Fashion Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbeggar, consider the following, if you haven't already.

1) Eddowes and Stride were BOTH living on Flower and Dean Street.
2) A turnoff of F&D Street was George Street. It connected F&D to the main road. At the time of her murder in April, Emma Smith lived at 18 George Street. Martha Tabram, at the time of her murder, lived next door at 19 George Street. This was all of 100 yards away from Dorset Street.
3) Mary Kelly previously lived in George Street.

As cool as all this sounds, all it actually means is that these women were constantly moving from one doss house to the next, and all in the same square mile or so. You could have opened a window and spit, and you would have hit someone who had lived on Flower and Dean Street and/or Dorset Street. But here's another cool

4) On the night of her murder, Eddowes gave the police the false address of 6 Fashion Street, while at the same time, Stride lied to Elizabeth Tanner and said she and Kidney lived on Fashion Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Cheers Tom ... The plot thickens
So as to my original question , is this all totally coincidental or circumstantial that these women all living within spitting distance (almost) of each other , are the ones targeted by the killer ? i have visited Mexico City on a few occasions , and i know exactly what a densely populated square mile looks like , and how vast and endless it seems once your sucked into it so all these victims of the Ripper living less than a hundred yards from each other , be-it the same lodging house , next door , or across the street , Still for me raises more questions than answers . 800.000 or so people living in the East End .. Why this particular five or maybe six ? in such a tiny fragment of the area ? Does this not rule out at least 90% of the suspects portrayed as blood thirsty psychos roaming the streets of the east end ?

cheers .
Moonbegger .

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Moon. The killer chose that area to kill in, so it stands to reason that the women he killed would live in that area, does it not? None of them (except Kelly) had homes. If you went to the downtown of a big city and knocked off some homeless people at random, would you find it coincidental or common sense if they could all be traced to staying at some of the same shelters, or eating at the same soup kitchens?

If you're looking for any common denominator, it would be Pearly Poll. And I don't know or necessarily believe that this means anything, but it's always nagging at the back of my brain.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious]

Hi Moon. The killer chose that area to kill in, so it stands to reason that the women he killed would live in that area, does it not? None of them (except Kelly) had homes. If you went to the downtown of a big city and knocked off some homeless people at random, would you find it coincidental or common sense if they could all be traced to staying at some of the same shelters, or eating at the same soup kitchens?

If you're looking for any common denominator, it would be Pearly Poll. And I don't know or necessarily believe that this means anything, but it's always nagging at the back of my brain.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi, Tom,
what about Pearly Poll nags at the back of your brain?

Thanks,

[Tom_Wescott]

She definitely knew Martha Tabram and Annie Chapman, almost certainly knew Emma Smith (her next door neighbor) and probably knew Mary Kelly. Also, it bothers me that she tried to work Emma Smith stuff into her Tabram fantasy, such as calling Martha Tabram 'Emma' when no one else did, and saying that she (Poll) got into a quarrel with her corporal right before the two couples parted, and the soldier hit her with a walking stick. She was also best buds with the woman who beat up Annie Chapman not long before Chapman turned up dead. Then she and this woman go to the police saying they know who the Ripper is and he lives not far from where Polly Nichols was killed. This lead was followed through but clearly led to nothing. Do I think Poll was involved in the murders somehow? Not really. All high profile cases seem to have some nut like this about, but I still wonder sometimes. Anyway, I do think she probably personally knew half or more of the Whitechapel murder victims, so for someone looking for a connection between any of the victims, Poll is your best bet.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

and saying that she (Poll) got into a quarrel with her corporal right before the two couples parted, and the soldier hit her with a walking stick.

Weird stuff. Was also wondering, what's up with walking sticks for non limping people? Were walking sticks typical for Victorian London somehow? Or just convenient as a weapon? And why on earth would a soldier carry a walking stick (unless he was injured)?

[curious]

She definitely knew Martha Tabram and Annie Chapman, almost certainly knew Emma Smith (her next door neighbor) and probably knew Mary Kelly. Also, it bothers me that she tried to work Emma Smith stuff into her Tabram fantasy, such as calling Martha Tabram 'Emma' when no one else did, and saying that she (Poll) got into a quarrel with her corporal right before the two couples parted, and the soldier hit her with a walking stick. She was also best buds with the woman who beat up Annie Chapman not long before Chapman turned up dead. Then she and this woman go to the police saying they know who the Ripper is and he lives not far from where Polly Nichols was killed. This lead was followed through but clearly led to nothing. Do I think Poll was involved in the murders somehow? Not really. All high profile cases seem to have some nut like this about, but I still wonder sometimes. Anyway, I do think she probably personally knew half or more of the Whitechapel murder victims, so for someone looking for a connection between any of the victims, Poll is your best bet.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

WOW. How is it thought she might have known Kelly?

Thanks

[Tom_Wescott]

I believe she was also living at 35 Dorset Street.

Maria,

Walking sticks would be a fashion statement, as well as reasonable self-protection for the average guy. Naturally, criminals would also use them as weapons, probably thicker than the average walking stick. I would imagine Le Grand's umbrella - that he used to beat women over the head with - was probably such a thick stick disguised as an umbrella. The average Victorian umbrella would likely break on first strike, and certainly wouldn't inflict pain or injury.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Weird fashion statement! "My walking stick is Armani, yours came from Walmart." Lol.

I was expecting the one Le Grand used to be thicker, perhaps similar to a baseball bat. What old people use today as a walking stick can be broken in 2 pieces with one hand.
Of course there are those "walking sticks" which feature a dagger on one end, for self protection.