Stride and Chapman , same address ?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria,

Don't forget that Abberline was given a walking stick upon retirement. They were fashion accessories for men. I'm sure Le Grand didn't carry a skinny stick, since he clearly used it for intimidation purposes. I'm not sure that there were actual walking sticks produced in the LVP with hidden daggers. I've wondered the same thing myself, but I'm not sure that this isn't just something we got from Bond films.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Don't forget that Abberline was given a walking stick upon retirement. They were fashion accessories for men.

Wow, didn't know that, and by today's standards is sounds offensive. (Why not a wheelchair?!)

I'm not sure that there were actual walking sticks produced in the LVP with hidden daggers. I've wondered the same thing myself, but I'm not sure that this isn't just something we got from Bond films.

Or from Clockwork orange.
But lately I was reading somewhere about a stick like that (with an inserted dagger), British related and crime related. Wish I'd remember where it was.

[tji]

Hi Tom

I'm not sure that there were actual walking sticks produced in the LVP with hidden daggers. I've wondered the same thing myself, but I'm not sure that this isn't just something we got from Bond films.

I am almost sure there was,, they were known as either a sword stick or cane-swords. I also remember seeing an illustration somewhere of a man with one.


Tracy

[Steven Russell]

Don't forget the poisoned umbrella that killed Georgi Markov (sp?).

If Pearly Poll did know Emma Smith, it's not unlikely she would have known Margaret Hames. If so, she could have saved a lot of people a lot of time looking for Fairy Fay.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Tom

I'm not sure that there were actual walking sticks produced in the LVP with hidden daggers.

From The Star

The journalist was in Flower and Dean Street a day or two after the double event.

While Toby was speaking a woman came along with an armful of walking sticks, each one showing that they were swordsticks of a cheap but dangerous pattern. "Here you are, now," she cried, "sixpence for a swordstick. That's the sort to do for 'em." The man of news was astounded, but Toby only smiled. "Oh!" said he; "she does a good business, she do. She's been down in Berner-street all day, and sold a lot of 'em."

[mariab]

If Pearly Poll did know Emma Smith, it's not unlikely she would have known Margaret Hames. If so, she could have saved a lot of people a lot of time looking for Fairy Fay.

Steve, have you by any chance come upon any newspaper reports with info about what kind of injuries Margaret Hames sustained during her attack?

[moonbegger]

Hi Moon. The killer chose that area to kill in, so it stands to reason that the women he killed would live in that area, does it not? None of them (except Kelly) had homes. If you went to the downtown of a big city and knocked off some homeless people at random, would you find it coincidental or common sense if they could all be traced to staying at some of the same shelters, or eating at the same soup kitchens?

If you're looking for any common denominator, it would be Pearly Poll. And I don't know or necessarily believe that this means anything, but it's always nagging at the back of my brain.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom ,
When you say "Area the killer chose to kill in " did you mean the densely populated square mile of whitechapel (witch is actually quite vast ) or the hundred yards or so in which his victims all seemed to live , and where he picked them from ? I get all of the above , but the fact that they all lived only yards from each other in the heart of whitechapel , and in the case of , Stride , Eddows , and Nichols who were found a considerable distance from
their home turf ( or cobbles for me raises a eyebrow or two , we are talking thousands of prostitutes all living within this grim square mile .. so why, oh why, did not even just one of these apparently random victims happen to live in one of the many other poverty stricken streets throughout the whole of whitechapel . i was also wondering was it then as it is today in whitechapel , where street hawkers , prostitutes , pimps , drug dealers have their own patch , and if your caught operating on someone else's ground .. it could be big trouble .. witch would raise a few more questions in regards to Liz , Kate , and Polly .

cheers .
Moonbegger .

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Moonbegger.

Here is the thing Mr Wolf ... At Strides inquest Michel Kidney statement makes it clear that stride had been living with him for three years , give and take a few months when her bouts of drunkenness would take her of to her temporary doss house at 32 flower and dean street .. Elizabeth Tanner's statement also bares this out , even more so when she speaks of the fact that Stride left the man she was living with ( Michel Kidney ) on thursday to come and stay at our house ( 32 F+D ) . So at the inquest Kidney's address is given as 38 Dorset street .. but in the Daily News of 6th oct his address is given as 35 Dorset st ! So with all the " maybes " and " probably " and conjecture aside .. its a toss up between 35 and 38 ! either way i think it stretches the boundaries of coincidence.

Sure, I suppose you can make a case of Stride living at 35 Dorset Street and the coincidence of Chapman having lived at this same address…if you ignore what I wrote:

“there is a usually ignored question as to whether they lived on Dorset Street at all or whether this was a mix up with Devonshire.”

Several newspapers reported that at the inquest Kidney stated that he was living at 38 Dorset Street. This does not mean that he had lived at this address with Stride for the three years they were together. It just means that on the day he gave evidence at the inquest Kidney was living at that address.

Kidney, himself, told the Central News (2 October, 1888) that he and Stride lived together at “35 Devonshire Street down to five months ago,” and that they then moved to 36 Devonshire. This is supported by the evidence of Sven Olsson, of the Swedish Church, who stated at the inquest that when Stride had applied for aid in May of 1886 she gave her address as “Devonshire Street.” Catherine Lane, who knew Stride from 32 Flower and Dean Street, also stated that Stride had lived on Devonshire Street.

One newspaper report, the Daily News, therefore, doesn’t stand up against Kidney’s own statements or those of others who knew Stride. The Daily News is obviously wrong and, as I also said, “Either way, they did not live at 35 Dorset Street.”

Wolf.

[Steven Russell]

Steve, have you by any chance come upon any newspaper reports with info about what kind of injuries Margaret Hames sustained during her attack?

Sorry, Maria. All I have read of Hames has come from this site or the standard books. The A-Z, while not going into detail, mentions face and chest injuries. She was attacked on 8th December 1887 and released from Whitechapel Infirmary on 28th so one can assume that the injuries were serious.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[mariab]

The A-Z, while not going into detail, mentions face and chest injuries. She was attacked on 8th December 1887 and released from Whitechapel Infirmary on 28th so one can assume that the injuries were serious.

Long hospital stay indeed. Does the A-Z (which I don't own in any of the current editions) mention what kind of chest wounds? I assume a knifing occurred?

[Steven Russell]

No, Maria. It just says "face and chest injuries". Scotland Yard Investigates is the same.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[mariab]

Thanks Steven. (Don't have SY investigates along with my here in Paris, just Sugden + The Ultimate.) “Chest injuries“ implicate a knifing I'd say. “Face injuries" could have been a simple beating.

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger.



Sure, I suppose you can make a case of Stride living at 35 Dorset Street and the coincidence of Chapman having lived at this same address…if you ignore what I wrote:

“there is a usually ignored question as to whether they lived on Dorset Street at all or whether this was a mix up with Devonshire.”

Several newspapers reported that at the inquest Kidney stated that he was living at 38 Dorset Street. This does not mean that he had lived at this address with Stride for the three years they were together. It just means that on the day he gave evidence at the inquest Kidney was living at that address.

Kidney, himself, told the Central News (2 October, 1888) that he and Stride lived together at “35 Devonshire Street down to five months ago,” and that they then moved to 36 Devonshire. This is supported by the evidence of Sven Olsson, of the Swedish Church, who stated at the inquest that when Stride had applied for aid in May of 1886 she gave her address as “Devonshire Street.” Catherine Lane, who knew Stride from 32 Flower and Dean Street, also stated that Stride had lived on Devonshire Street.

One newspaper report, the Daily News, therefore, doesn’t stand up against Kidney’s own statements or those of others who knew Stride. The Daily News is obviously wrong and, as I also said, “Either way, they did not live at 35 Dorset Street.”

Wolf.

Now, Now, Mister Wolf , calm down ..
I'm sensing a little over excitement creeping into the discussion
i really do appreciate your knowledge and your opinion , and i thankfully take it all on board , but here is the thing .. the only bit i i'm not really too interested in ( and wish to ignore ) is the conjecture and surmising . Is it not indeed a fact that Kidney said his address was 38/35 Dorset street ? Is it also not a fact that Liz was living with him up until a few days before her murder .. is it not a fact that liz went back to 38/35 dorset street when kidney was out to pick up some of her belongings after she left him ? is it not once again fact that coroner Baxter in summing up stated that " for the past two years prior to her death she had been living in a common lodging house in dorset street with water side labourer Michel kidney" ? be-it 35 or 38 really makes no difference .. the fact that at least 3 victims lived on dorset street just before their murders .. in a densely populated square mile that was whitechapel .. for me raises more questions than answers . one thing that is clear though , is that no one can really be sure who was living where on any given night ( apart from poor ol Mary )

cheers
Moonbegger

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Teej and Jon. Wouldn't 'sword sticks' have merely been wooden sticks sharpened at the end?

Hi Moon, his name is Mr. Vanderlinden, actually. He knows a lot of stuff, and you can choose to listen or not, but I would recommend you take what he says into full consideration.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Wouldn't 'sword sticks' have merely been wooden sticks sharpened at the end?

You mean, like a stake? Have watched too much Joss Whedon, eh?