Spare a thought- The Double Event

[DVV]

[B]
What about Fleming - who still saw her (and was abusive?) - or "Morganstone"? Either HAD BEEN intimate with her.

Phil H

Yes Phil, but only Fleming was still around and his moving to Whitechapel in August or September 1888 may have something to do with Mary Kelly.

We can forget Morganstone, who is nothing but a name (perhaps misspelt) from Mary's past, but talking of MJK's past, I would add Hutch.

Or have I already mentioned him under another name ?

[Hunter]

Here's a novel idea.

How about in this instance and on this thread, just sparing a thought for these victims... and leave the theorizing for some other place and time.

[Addy]

Only just saw this thread. Rest in Peace, Liz and Kate.

[Phil H]

We can forget Morganstone, who is nothing but a name (perhaps misspelt) from Mary's past, but talking of MJK's past, I would add Hutch.

Why forget him because he is somewhat shadowy? He might hold the key - we have little enough to go on. But i think I understand your reasoning.

Hunter - apologies. It is indeed right to remember these women and I do I assure you, every time I consider the case.

But as a result of their sad fate they, as against their compatriots of the day, have gained a sort of immortality. For myself, I think our continuing concern about what happened to them and - yes - a desire to name a culprit(s) does honour them above anything else.

Phil H

[DVV]

Hi Phil

Why forget him because he is somewhat shadowy?

He's actually a shadow - at best.

He might hold the key

Well, everything is possible, but if so, that key is lost til the end of times. As far as I'm concerned, I've never heard that he was once about to marry MJK, nor that he used to visit and ill-use her in 1888, nor that he spent 28 years in the loony bin.

[Phil H]

But we hadn't heard anything AT ALL about Tumblety, until the Littlechild letter emerged, and that has opened many doors, even if it doesn't seem that the "Doctor" is "Jack".

Morganstone WAS mentioned by Barnett and appears to have known her/been involved with her. I think modern police would not rule him out. Mary thought enough of him to mention him to Joe (or was it one of the girls?), after all.

The trouble is that so many of the names associated with MJK (even if one can believe her tale) seem garbled - hence Mrs Buki. But maybe, one day, a researcher will stumble on an interesting lead.

I don't think Morganstone IS "Jack" for a moment, but he is of a "type" (one of her ex-lovers) who might be Mary's killer for me.

Phil H

[DVV]

Well, as you like, Phil. I'd welcome any find about that obscure character, but if Mary had been "very fond" of him, if he used to visit her in 1888, etc, we would know already.
Fact is that all this applies to one guy named Joseph Fleming (Que Dieu ne lui fasse pas miséricorde !).

[Phil H]

I'd welcome any find about that obscure character, but if Mary had been "very fond" of him, if he used to visit her in 1888, etc, we would know already.

Seems very complacent to me. But then you appear to give away your bias and the reason in the next sentence.

Sobeit.

Phil H

[Michael W Richards]

I think David that its important that we state Mary was fond of another Joe, and she was seeing him at the time she was seeing Barnett according to a friend, but we do not know that person was Fleming. We know Fleming did become institutionalized, but we dont know if that was a result of anything resembling violent tendencies.

I personally believe that Mary was murdered by someone who knew her and vice versa, but I am uncertain that the "Joe" in this case was Fleming. If it was another Joe, one caught up in a more dangerous world than the plasterer was, that might explain more than just the grievous injuries.

Cheers

And as Hunter reminded us all.....Liz and Kate were killed Sept 30th, 124 years ago. No matter who killed either of them, or what they did in their brief lives, neither deserved what they got.

I hope one day they might be spared the microscope we put them under.