Spare a thought- The Double Event

[c.d.]

I think the extensive cuts to the face could be accounted for by the fact that her killer had time to gaze upon her face in the light of the fire, something that he would not have been afforded with his earlier victims. Looking at her face for a long time could have triggered something in him.

c.d.

[DVV]

As for Fleming making a credible suspect, well...

Please continue - I wait with baited breath....

Phil H

Nope. That'd be off-topic.

[Michael W Richards]

Stomach flaps = Chapman and Kelly.
It makes Kelly definitely canonical, if you ask me.
As for Fleming making a credible suspect, well...

I think what it does do is confirm that at least Marys killer could read David. Mary has an amalgamation of injuries that her killer had read about. Like everyone else in the area. I pointed out recently that in Canada a few months back a killer cut up his victim and sent pieces of the victim out in the mail. And without surprise, I can tell you that 3 more killings have been committed since then, after much press coverage, that included the killers cutting the victim into pieces and spreading them about. Clearly not all 4 killers had a compulsion to cut people into pieces. They were influenced by what they had read.

So youve narrowed her killer down to a person who can read and hold a knife. A person without knife skills or anatomical knowledge. Unlike Annies killer, who most certainly possessed both qualities.

Cheers

[drstrange169]

Perhaps more appropriate that arguments, pros and cons, etc take place on another thread.
Surely the two women deserve at last a moments pause for peace.

[Barnaby]

I revived last year's thread with the sole purpose of remembering the anniversary of the death's of Stride and Eddowes, not to debate who was responsible for the murders, etc. There are plenty of other threads for those important topics. But it would be nice to keep this a simple rememberance thread. It really didn't matter to the victims who killed them or why.

[DVV]

I think what it does do is confirm that at least Marys killer could read David.

Certainly not, Mike. And clearly a lot of casebookers, who have read more about JtR than Mary's killer, don't know that he gained access to the internal organs by detaching flaps of skin, or have forgotten this detail.
Note, by the way, that in Hanbury St it was getting light, while a fire was burning in Kelly's room.

So youve narrowed her killer down to a person who can read and hold a knife. A person without knife skills or anatomical knowledge. Unlike Annies killer, who most certainly possessed both qualities.

Sorry Mike, I'm not really a Dr Phillips' fan.

[Steve S]

Something from the Conference....Based on modern experience,facial mutilations normally indicate the killer knows the victim..........??

[Sherlock Holmes]

based on that would you say the victims knew their killer

Regards
Holmes

[Phil H]

It might suggest that Eddowes and Kelly did - the only two with facial mutilation.

If Eddowes was killed by someone seeking revenge (Fenian?) then Kelly might have been facially mutilated to make it APPEAR she was a victim of the same killer.

On the other hand, the two women might have been disfigured for different reasons. To me, the remark by Steve S conforms to my prevalent view these days that MJK was killed by an intimate friend.

Phil H

[Steve S]

I draw no conclusions,(As I don't hold a particular view).....But it wouldn't fit in with those who hold Eddowes was mistaken for Kelly.....As always,too many "ifs".....It is quite conceivable that a local killer would be familiar with SOME of the victims............

[Phil H]

If someone KNEW Kelly, I don't quite see how they would have mistaken Eddowes for her!! Even in the dark with the light behind her (to quote WS Gilbert who has been mentioned lately).

A contract killer might have made a mistake i guess, but then the personal angle disappears, doesn't it?

Phil H

[Phil Carter]

It might suggest that Eddowes and Kelly did - the only two with facial mutilation.

If Eddowes was killed by someone seeking revenge (Fenian?) then Kelly might have been facially mutilated to make it APPEAR she was a victim of the same killer.

On the other hand, the two women might have been disfigured for different reasons. To me, the remark by Steve S conforms to my prevalent view these days that MJK was killed by an intimate friend.

Phil H

Hello Phil,

Please allow me to enlarge around this thought of yours?

Facial disfiguration is perhaps a key, and somewhat overlooked point here. I am of the pretty firm belief that facial obliteration and disfigurement has a second purpose..to obliterate a person's identity..either by personal knowledge and known contact of or with them, or for "professional" reasons..i.e. to "show" what "can happen to...if...."

The first point has been talked of as you quite rightly touch upon, and the 2nd, under the wording "contract killing" becomes plausible only if we can connect Kelly and Eddowes in some way. Apart from the obvious name usage by Eddowes of Kelly, and apart from the even flimsier connection of Eddowes'man being of Irish decent and Kelly may have been likewise, what have we that can tie these two women together in some way?

Both ideas are interesting. Having looked through the Eddowes background there isn't an awful lot to compare her to Kelly. And of course, the Kelly background itself is fraught with problems, even if it is true and she was Irish.

The suggestion has been raised that Eddowes and Kelly may have a connection regarding the killer himself. In Kelly's case, Barnett is the obvious "close" intimacy... but in Eddowes case, Barnett doesnt come into the equation. Can a connection be found between Eddowes' "husband" and Barnett?

All intruiguing and speculatory. However, worthy of consideration should such a connection, or any other between the two ladies, be found, I believe.

Good post Phil. Excellent points.

best wishes

Phil

[Michael W Richards]

Certainly not, Mike. And clearly a lot of casebookers, who have read more about JtR than Mary's killer, don't know that he gained access to the internal organs by detaching flaps of skin, or have forgotten this detail.
Note, by the way, that in Hanbury St it was getting light, while a fire was burning in Kelly's room.


Sorry Mike, I'm not really a Dr Phillips' fan.

To address your response David....

1. More caseboookers should be cognizant that the killer used the stomach flap method to mutilate Mary. The size of that fire is alleged, it may not have been any help to the killer since it illuminated his left side or his back...if he was between her legs at any point. The candle is more probably the light source available.

2. Too bad...he saw more Canonicals dead than any other physician, (4 of 5), and his opinion on the first 2 murders was corroborated.

Cheers David.

[RavenDarkendale]

I wonder if the double event murders would be connected at all by investigators armed with the forensics of today?

I can see it being logical that if JtR was disturbed before mutilating Stride that the mutilation of Eddows would be an acceleration of violence. Equally however, the fury of the attack could indicate it was personal.

Interlude: Recall Eddows stated she would get "A damn fine hiding" when she reached home. Did John Kelly in his anger track her down to Mitre Square and losing it completely viciously murder her using JtR techniques to confuse the police? just a thought.

[Phil H]

The suggestion has been raised that Eddowes and Kelly may have a connection regarding the killer himself. In Kelly's case, Barnett is the obvious "close" intimacy... but in Eddowes case, Barnett doesnt come into the equation. Can a connection be found between Eddowes' "husband" and Barnett?

But there are more men in Mary's past that just Joe Barnett.

What about Fleming - who still saw her (and was abusive?) - or "Morganstone"? Either HAD BEEN intimate with her.

Phil H