Work among the fallen as seen in the prison cell

[Herlock Sholmes]

On second thoughts,


So Seanr, what is your thoughts on what I have posted.I know Herlock will be squimmingand trying to find some excuses,but there it is,an extract from the Gleaner.

The quote changes absolutely nothing Harry as Paul and Debra have both said.

The term ‘Unfortunate’ was provably a euphemism for prostitute in Victorian England. As times move on and society has become less prudish on these issues the need for euphemisms naturally lessens until a word or phrase falls out of usage. Obviously these things don’t happen on one particular day or week but over time. This is why the term ‘Unfortunate’ isn’t in use today. This has been explained to you already Harry.

So when we have argued about the accepted use of ‘Unfortunate’ to have meant prostitute in Victorian England you give us an example from Jamaica and 50 years later.

We know that words can be used in all manner of ways whether grammatically correct or incorrect. These can be specific to times or just to locations. I’m have no doubt that if we looked we could find examples of other words used in different ways. Although I can’t produce this Harry (because I can’t recall where I saw it) but a few days ago I saw someone describe some people as ‘this bunch of stupids.’ The phrase stuck in my mind for some reason. Now we know that ‘stupid’ isn’t a noun but it was used as one in this case. So it’s hardly surprising that someone might at some point describe a group of unfortunate people as ‘unfortunates’ is it?

So your quote is irrelevant to the discussion at hand Harry (as I suspect that you already knew.)

…..

There’s little point in continuing unless you concede that you are wrong. Which you undoubtedly are Harry. In Victorian era England an ‘Unfortunate’ was a euphemism for prostitute and nothing else. Not poor, not destitute, not unlucky but prostitute.

You need to ask yourself why no one agrees with you on this (well, apart from one person but his opinion doesn’t count) Do you really think that over the last few years every single person is wrong and that you alone are correct? Come on…

It has been proven.

[PaulB]

"Among these unfortunates was Weimar, the virtuous and happy father of a numerous family."


Claudine, Or Humility The Basis Of All The Virtues

A Swiss Tale (1830)

By Maria Elizabeth Budden




The Baron

There were a group of wealthy people who were unprepared to cope with the devestation that in the blink of an eye had reduced them from wealth to penuary, and among the unfortunates was Weimar. What relevance does this have to anything being discussed here? Nobody has said that "unfortunate" didn't have other meanings, as in a group of people unfortunately unaccustomed to wrestling with adversity.

[PaulB]

The Baron

Titter away, but take note of the upper case "U" and the consistent assertion that "unfortunate" be used as a noun.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We’ve done The Old Bailey so now a few newspaper articles.

York Herald 4 December, 1888 - Headline "A FRACAS WITH AN UNFORTUNATE IN LONDON".

According to Harry, this could mean anything including a male pauper but the article makes clear that it's about an attempt to murder a prostitute.

Aberdeen Express, 22 October 1889 - Headline "JOHN BURNS AS CHAMPION OF "UNFORTUNATES"".

Again the article makes clear that Burns was talking about prostitution and "these poor women".

Oxford Journal, 30 June 1900 - Headline "AN "UNFORTUNATE" FOUND DROWNED".

In this article the coroner is reported as saying, "He believed the woman was an "unfortunate", or prostitute". So that's very clear!

John Bull, 12 April 1924 - Says "On the streets! An unfortunate - a prostitute - so the moral outcast is flippantly designated".

Makes v. clear what unfortunate means.

So the phrase was still in use up to the 1920’s at least.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Titter away, but take note of the upper case "U" and the consistent assertion that "unfortunate" be used as a noun.

How can anyone not understand this? It’s like trying to teach a horse to play chess.

[The Baron]

take note of the upper case "U" and the consistent assertion that "unfortunate" be used as a noun.

Take note of the "s" in "unfortunates" in my example, it has been also used as a noun.


You and Herlock have been proved wrong.




The Baron

[PaulB]

How can anyone not understand this? It’s like trying to teach a horse to play chess.

Unless, of course, the horse, of course, was the famous Mr Ed. These people yakkity-yak a streak and waste your time of day, you'd be better off not to speak unless there is something to say..! In other words, it's probably best to let this drop until these good folk understand what the discussion is all about. This is just moving further and further off topic.

[PaulB]

Take note of the "s" in "unfortunates" in my example, it has been also used as a noun.


You and Herlock have been proved wrong.




The Baron

I noted the "s" in your example as denoting more than one, hence a group or class of people, as clear from the text:- "But there was one class of sufferers, whom compassion could soothe, but whom bounty could not reach—the class of wealthy land-owners...". To this group of suffererS, land-ownerS, unfortunateS, Weimar belonged. He belonged to a group of people least able to deal with the destruction of a devastating flood.

[The Baron]

I noted the "s" in your example as denoting more than one, hence a group or class of people, as clear from the text:- "But there was one class of sufferers, whom compassion could soothe, but whom bounty could not reach—the class of wealthy land-owners...". To this group of suffererS, land-ownerS, unfortunateS, Weimar belonged. He belonged to a group of people least able to deal with the destruction of a devastating flood.

Admit you were wrong and move on.



The Baron

[PaulB]

I'd be happy to. If I was wrong. The "unfortunates" to which Weimar belonged were the wealthy people unfitted to cope with a disaster. The author used an 's' because it was more than one. Irrespective of that, it did not use an upper case "U" as had Herlock, and was in any case utterly irrelevant because it was using the word in the context of unlucky (or in this case, unluckier), which was obviously not a meaning anyone had denied the word had. That the word had multiple meanings, one of which meant prostitute, particularly when prefaced by "an" and often used with a capital "U", is not a concept too difficult to understand, and it is abundantly clear that Ms Budden used "unfortunates" to describe a group who had suffered misfortune, a usage nobody had denied.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Unless, of course, the horse, of course, was the famous Mr Ed. These people yakkity-yak a streak and waste your time of day, you'd be better off not to speak unless there is something to say..! In other words, it's probably best to let this drop until these good folk understand what the discussion is all about. This is just moving further and further off topic.

At least you can teach a horse a few simple things Paul. We have two here for whom the only questions can be - do they genuinely not understand the obvious or are they just arguing for the sake of it? For one of them at least I suspect that I know the answer. It beggars belief that they continue to argue against a mountain of proper evidence then produce the 2 most obviously inappropriate examples that you could possibly come up with.

Some people need a lesson in the English language before joining a discussion.

[PaulB]

All that matters is that when a woman was described as "an unfortunate" or described herself as "an unfortunate" it meant that she was a prostitute. If it was used in the context of someone who had suffered a misfortune, it didn't mean prostitute, it simply meant unfortunate. Everything else is just diversionary and we're absolute mugs to keep falling for it.

[Mark J D]

... we're absolute mugs to keep falling for it.

A troll is an energy vampire, that's all.
It's the easiest thing in the world to defeat.
Yet the Third Law of the Internet is: 'Troll. Always. Wins.'
Because all people have to do when faced with an energy vampire is *walk away* ... and *they can't*...

M.

[Debra A]

Someone was asking about Elizabeth's Stride record in 1884 earlier. I found that Elizabeth Stride was picked up by police in 1880 for some reason.

I started a new thread about this with a couple of questions if anyone can help.
The workhouse as a place of remand-Elizabeth Stride at Bromley

[The Baron]

“ Good old man," said Amorassan in a dejected tone, "I am an unfortunate! I am an outcast from society, bereft of all my friends, persecuted by many enemies: but I swear to you, that I am innocent, if he dares call himself so, who has murmured against the dispensations of Heaven, and quarrelled with the impérfections of man, I have no resting place on earth, no roof to shelter my head from the tempest."


Romantic Tales, 1808

By M.G. Lewis


Another example of the use of "unfortunate" as a noun from 1808.



The Baron