Work among the fallen as seen in the prison cell

[harry]

The term (Unfortunate) meant prostitute and nothing else,Herlock claims.I have shown in the example I posted(Previous post),that it does mean something else.Henry Mcmahon was an Unfortunate.It says so in the 'Gleaner' newspaper.I will in good time,prove it.In the meantime,Herlockcan post a reference to his claim that Unfortunate meant prostitute and nothing else,If he is telling the truth'.I claim he is making it up.
Here is a little tip if posters aren't already wise to it.Don't copy/cut and paste,use the prt sc function.The button can be found just above the backspace on a key board.Hold down the windows sign at the bottom,press that button and what is on screen will be saved to your computer,most likely in the pictures folder.
Thanks Baron.
Happy Christmas

[harry]

By the way Herlock,everyone on the planet? Does that include Rubenhold and her supporters?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The term (Unfortunate) meant prostitute and nothing else,Herlock claims.I have shown in the example I posted(Previous post),that it does mean something else.Henry Mcmahon was an Unfortunate.It says so in the 'Gleaner' newspaper.I will in good time,prove it.In the meantime,Herlockcan post a reference to his claim that Unfortunate meant prostitute and nothing else,If he is telling the truth'.I claim he is making it up.
Here is a little tip if posters aren't already wise to it.Don't copy/cut and paste,use the prt sc function.The button can be found just above the backspace on a key board.Hold down the windows sign at the bottom,press that button and what is on screen will be saved to your computer,most likely in the pictures folder.
Thanks Baron.
Happy Christmas

Harry, I’m afraid that you’re not a poster worth taking seriously. I’ve rarely heard the kind of nonsense that you’ve come up with on this subject. In your previous post you posted an entirely irrelevant excerpt from a dictionary. I don’t see why we should have to keep explaining Harry. It’s just not possible that you can’t understand. Your just being blatantly dishonest.

Frankly Harry, I don’t care about ‘in good time.’ You either have evidence or you don’t. And I’m telling you know - you don’t. Prove it now. You’re just delaying in the hope that we’ll all forget about it just like you did when I categorically proved you wrong on the other thread.

How many bloody examples can you keep demanding when you refuse to post one single piece of evidence. Not one Harry. You’re infantile dictionary quote was pathetic. Paul provided proper evidence. An ‘Unfortunate,’ is very obviously an archaic term (in case you don’t understand this either Harry it means that it’s no longer in use) The definition was quite unequivocal “an Unfortunate” was a PROSTITUTE.

You say that it could mean things like ‘unlucky’ or ‘destitute’ or ‘poverty stricken?’

SARAH WALLER . “I live at Cambridge Road, Norbiton—I am a single woman, and have no occupation—I get my living as an unfortunate”

So I suppose that Sarah got her living from being ‘unlucky’ or from being ‘destitute’ or from being ‘poverty stricken?’

Take your head out of the sand, stop trying deceitful tactics and accept the truth and stop wasting everyone’s time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

By the way Herlock,everyone on the planet? Does that include Rubenhold and her supporters?

They don’t know what they’re talking about either. Anyone that suggests that the killer just happened to find an unlocked door in Hanbury Street, walked through and just happened to find another unlocked door and then bingo found a sleeping woman to kill is not to be taken seriously. You probably do though.

[seanr]

That the term "unfortunate" was applied to any destitute and homeless woman is the argument advanced by Hallie Rubenhold and needs to be supported by evidence, which I don't recall her providing. It is irrelevant in any case because there is evidence that the victims were occasional sex workers.

I've stumbled on a dissertation by Katherine Crooks on the topic of "JACK THE RIPPER’S “UNFORTUNATE” VICTIMS: PROSTITUTION AS VAGRANCY, 1888-1900" - https://dalspace.library.dal.ca/bits...-June-2015.pdf which treats academically some of the issues at hand.
She cites the article “THE WHITECHAPEL MURDERER,” Pall Mall Gazette 10 September 1888 as describing the victims as 'Whitechapel women of the unfortunate class'. The class of prostitutes? From which all of the women as a class prostituted themselves?

The term 'woman of the lowest class of unfortunates' turns up frequently in the newspaper reports in relation to the Ripper victims during 1888 and into the 1890s.

Serious question though, what evidence could there be and what could we look for to distinguish between a destitute woman, a working class single woman and 'an unfortunate'? - in the eyes of the Victorian middle and upper classes, a woman who was dependent upon having a man in her life for means of an income and had a string of casual or short term (sexual) relationships from which they benefitted financially, may well fit the description of 'an unfortunate'. However, that would also describe the lifestyle available to an unmarried working class woman, who did not live with her parents.

Interestingly, I stumbled over the very same case which Debs quoted from earlier https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...nate#highlight
The full quote, I think, is interesting:

Cross-examined by Grandy. I am not married—I call myself Mrs. Brown, it looks better—I am German—Brown is a nickname, my real name is Minnie Groser—I have been in England seven years—I have been doing what your wife did for a living—I am an unfortunate; I did the same before I came to England—I am twenty-five years old—I have not been living with a man who was taken up for cheques—I did not bring with me a Japanese man to 35, Charlotte Street; he kept me there—I went with him to Liverpool, then spent six weeks in the country, and came back to where you were living—I did not go on the streets during the time the Japanese kept me—after he left I went on the streets again—I was not turned out of the house—I stayed two months afterwards—the Japanese man gave me £50

Cross-examined by Demay. When I was going to leave your house every man I brought home you called a blackguard—I don't remember anybody coming and breaking a window.

These days should someone spend some time in Liverpool with a man and then a further six weeks and then a further two months without seeing other men, might fit the definition of 'a relationship'. For the Victorian educated classes though with their attitudes to marriage, a woman setting up with a man to whom she was not married for at least six weeks, would have been an immoral and unfortunate thing to do.

[seanr]

Oh, and Merry Christmas everyone.

[Debra A]

Interestingly, I stumbled over the very same case which Debs quoted from earlier https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...nate#highlight
The full quote, I think, is interesting:

Cross-examined by Grandy. I am not married—I call myself Mrs. Brown, it looks better—I am German—Brown is a nickname, my real name is Minnie Groser—I have been in England seven years—I have been doing what your wife did for a living—I am an unfortunate; I did the same before I came to England—I am twenty-five years old—I have not been living with a man who was taken up for cheques—I did not bring with me a Japanese man to 35, Charlotte Street; he kept me there—I went with him to Liverpool, then spent six weeks in the country, and came back to where you were living—I did not go on the streets during the time the Japanese kept me—after he left I went on the streets again—I was not turned out of the house—I stayed two months afterwards—the Japanese man gave me £50

Cross-examined by Demay. When I was going to leave your house every man I brought home you called a blackguard—I don't remember anybody coming and breaking a window.

These days should someone spend some time in Liverpool with a man and then a further six weeks and then a further two months without seeing other men, might fit the definition of 'a relationship'. For the Victorian educated classes though with their attitudes to marriage, a woman setting up with a man to whom she was not married for at least six weeks, would have been an immoral and unfortunate thing to do.

Interestingly, I spent a good few years researching Grande, this case, and other events he was involved with.
I'm not quite sure how expanding the quote here has made any difference seanr. As I mentioned a few posts back, during the trial, Minnie Groser addresses a question from Grandy/Grande (in cross examination by him) by saying she been doing what his ([Grande's] wife did for a living, this 'wife' was Amelia Demay and in the same trial, Sergeant James, an officer tasked with investigating Grandy and his associates, and Demay, who was also on trial here, states that "Demay has been getting her living as a prostitute"
The events around several incidents that made it to court in March 1887, involving several different women, also support this.
I'm not sure of your point. Can you elaborate?

P.S. the academic paper you mention has been linked to a couple of times on the Petticoat Parley thread.

[harry]

Now that was a long post,Herlock,adding nothing new,and still evading the question,from where did you get the information 'an unfortunate meant prostitute and nothing else'.Be honest,you made it up.
Archaic means'Of olden times',it does not mean no longer in use.An honest answer to your dishonest description.
Henry Mcmahon certainly has you fuddled.He was real.

[PaulB]

The Oxford English Dictionary defines "archaic" as "a. Marked by the characteristics of an earlier period; old-fashioned, primitive, antiquated..." and when applied to language as "b. esp. of language: Belonging to an earlier period, no longer in common use...". When the dictionary refers to a word as "archaic" it means that the given definition is no longer in current use. When it defined "unfortunate" as meaning prostitute, describing that usage as "archaic" indicated that the word no longer has that meaning. Just in case anyone didn't know and thought of looking it up.

[seanr]

Interestingly, I spent a good few years researching Grande, this case, and other events he was involved with.
I'm not quite sure how expanding the quote here has made any difference seanr. As I mentioned a few posts back, during the trial, Minnie Groser addresses a question from Grandy/Grande (in cross examination by him) by saying she been doing what his ([Grande's] wife did for a living, this 'wife' was Amelia Demay and in the same trial, Sergeant James, an officer tasked with investigating Grandy and his associates, and Demay, who was also on trial here, states that "Demay has been getting her living as a prostitute"
The events around several incidents that made it to court in March 1887, involving several different women, also support this.
I'm not sure of your point. Can you elaborate?

P.S. the academic paper you mention has been linked to a couple of times on the Petticoat Parley thread.

I don't think the full quote contradicts anything you've said, Debs. It's clear Minnie Groser is stating she works as a prostitute.

What jumps out at me as interesting is the detail around the Japanese man, with whom she spent some time in Liverpool, six weeks in the country and then lived for a further two months being 'kept' by him. "—after he left I went on the streets again—" she says.
This period of three months (at least) being 'kept' by a single man appears to fall under the definition of 'unfortunate/ prostitution' in what Minnie is describing, but would it do so today? - A period of some three months is not a job, so much as a lifestyle.

She received £50 from the Japanese man although it's not clear (to me) if that is the sum total of the support he gave to her or if was a lump sum in addition to other funds. £50 according to online inflation calculators as in the region of about £7,000 today.

Another thing I noticed after the previous post, although this may not be relevant to the present discussion is Minnie says she is twenty-five and been in England for seven years. Meaning she would have been about 18 when arriving here. She goes on to say she did the same work before arriving here. She must have been 17 or younger when she started earning a living in this way.

[seanr]

Henry Mcmahon certainly has you fuddled.He was real.

Henry McMahon does not have anyone fuddled as yet. As you haven't shared any evidence of to back up what you say about him.

[Debra A]

I don't think the full quote contradicts anything you've said, Debs. It's clear Minnie Groser is stating she works as a prostitute.

What jumps out at me as interesting is the detail around the Japanese man, with whom she spent some time in Liverpool, six weeks in the country and then lived for a further two months being 'kept' by him. "—after he left I went on the streets again—" she says.
This period of three months (at least) being 'kept' by a single man appears to fall under the definition of 'unfortunate/ prostitution' in what Minnie is describing, but would it do so today? - A period of some three months is not a job, so much as a lifestyle.

She received £50 from the Japanese man although it's not clear (to me) if that is the sum total of the support he gave to her or if was a lump sum in addition to other funds. £50 according to online inflation calculators as in the region of about £7,000 today.

Another thing I noticed after the previous post, although this may not be relevant to the present discussion is Minnie says she is twenty-five and been in England for seven years. Meaning she would have been about 18 when arriving here. She goes on to say she did the same work before arriving here. She must have been 17 or younger when she started earning a living in this way.

Thanks for clarifying your point, seanr.
It's a pity we don't know what the exact questions were that Grande was asking Minnie. There may also have been an attempt to ask questions that would discredit her evidence as she was a witness against him and we are seeing a whole bunch of just answers. I seem to recall that there was some brief mention in the reporting suggesting a hint of other blackmailing scams Grande was behind involving letters to men who had been brought to the house by different women and later blackmailed by Grande, similar to the case brought by Malcolm Alexander Morris, but the men never brought an action.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Now that was a long post,Herlock,adding nothing new,and still evading the question,from where did you get the information 'an unfortunate meant prostitute and nothing else'.Be honest,you made it up.
Archaic means'Of olden times',it does not mean no longer in use.An honest answer to your dishonest description.
Henry Mcmahon certainly has you fuddled.He was real.

More avoidance Harry.

What I’ve done, and I’m not claiming that it’s a huge contribution, is to provide several examples from trials at the Old Bailey. All that I used as a search criteria was the word ‘unfortunate’ and a range of dates (from 1887-1888 for example) Now obviously some of the examples were simply ‘unfortunate’ used as an adjective ( “I was unfortunate to be in the wrong place at the wrong time” for example) We, of course, are only interested in ‘Unfortunate’ as a noun, ie when a persons is described by someone or by herself as an ‘Unfortunate.’

So even if we consider the odds, what are the chances that every single example came undoubtedly from a woman who engages in prostitution? I also looked at about 20 other examples from random years and again Harry every single one of them without fail was of a woman who very clearly engaged in prostitution. Are you suggesting that this was just an incredible piece of luck on my part? If you think that I’m inventing this Harry The Old Bailey online is freely accessible to everyone and very simple to use.

This is EVIDENCE Harry and it points in one direction. Do you at least a accept this very obvious point?

……

Like many words Harry there are different definitions.

Archaic - meaning

Oxford Dictionary - archaic

adjective

/ɑːˈkeɪɪk/

/ɑːrˈkeɪɪk/

1. old and no longer used
   • ‘Thou art’ is an archaic form of ‘you are’.

As far as we’re concerned of course the point is that you simply produced an utterly pointless quoted definition of the word. Pointless because we all (well, nearly all) know that people are no longer called ‘an Unfortunate.’ This archaic version of the noun clearly died out at some point. Paul however quoted the appropriate archaic definition and would you Adam-And-Eve it Harry it turns out that ‘Unfortunate’ specifically meant prostitute.

So the Old Bailey gives the lie to your point as does the dictionary and yet on you go with your head in the sand. How much more evidence can a man ‘demand?’ Especially a man who hasn’t produced one single, scintilla of evidence himself. All that you’ve contributed are 2 nudge, nudge, hint, hint points about your great grandmother and Henry McMahon.

…..

Its very interesting (and instructive Harry) how you’ve very noticeably distanced yourself from the point about your great grandmother. Another example of you ignoring an issue and hoping that everyone will forget about them to let you off the hook. Debra repeatedly asked you for EVIDENCE that she was labelled ‘an Unfortunate.’ A very simple request and one that you should have had no problem obliging. But you never did. Because that evidence very clearly doesn’t exist else you would have provided it.

……

No one on here has ever suggested that Henry McMahon (whoever he was) didn’t exist. I’m absolutely certain that he did. But what we very reasonably requested was that you provide EVIDENCE to back up your claim that he was labelled ‘an Unfortunate.’ And rather unsurprisingly you haven’t. I wonder why? I’ll tell you why, it’s because you can’t provide EVIDENCE, because you never do. You just keep waffling and obfuscating in the hope that we forget.

……

More than ample EVIDENCE has been provided. You haven’t posted a single thing to back up any of your claims. You keep demanding more evidence from us whilst point blank refusing to provide any yourself.

You’re ‘thinking’ appears to be that we need to provide evidence while all that you need to do is to assert something (like your great grand mother and Henry being labelled as ‘Unfortunates) and that we should simply believe you. Debate doesn’t work like that Harry. You make an assertion then back it up with evidence. You neglect the second part.

I’m sorry if this post is a bit long for you….it’s called content.

Stop waffling and provide EVIDENCE Harry. And no, not in your own good time, as that simply means that you’re hoping we forget.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Henry McMahon does not have anyone fuddled as yet. As you haven't shared any evidence of to back up what you say about him.

Exactly Sean. Harry just expects everyone to take everything he says as true without evidence whilst at the same time demanding more and more evidence from everyone else.

These are apparently Harry’s rules.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Back to The Old Bailey and let’s see if I can find ‘an Unfortunate’ that wasn’t a prostitute or even a woman.

Clara Boyden - coining offences - 2nd Feb 1885

“they said nothing then, but on the way to the station Harvey said that she was unfortunate, and met a young man who gave her the half-crown, and she knew this girl as an unfortunate, and asked her to have a couple of drinks with her”

A woman who was very obviously a prostitute.

…..

Sarah Birch - murder - 20th April 1885

ELIZABETH PICKFORD . “I am an unfortunate woman, and live at 4, Cannon Row, Woolwich”

ELLEN DEAN .” I live at 29, Cannon Row, Woolwich, and am an unfortunate woman”

Even when not used as a noun it’s clear from the text that these two were prostitutes unless Harry suggests that they both felt the need to say how unlucky they were. And they had rooms and weren’t destitute.

…….

Edward Powell - mail theft - 18th May 1885

“I knew her by living in the same house before Christmas last.—she is not an unfortunate that I know of—I was living the same life then in that house at 22, Storey Street”

Here a woman says that her acquaintance was not a prostitute.

……

Cain and Hennessey - burglary - 11th Jan 1886


FLORENCE TAYLOR . (Examined by Cain).” I am an unfortunate, and live at 7, Cannon Row—I saw you go out of the Duke of Sussex at 7 on this night—later on I saw you at the George and Dragon—I did not see any strangers with you there—I and you were the worse for drink—it was about a quarter-past 12 when I left you at the door of the public-house—they were telling us to go out then, and going to shut up”

Whaddya know, another woman who was a prostitute.

……

Sophia Harrington - coining offences - 8th March 1886

"I did not know the money was bad, it was given to me last night by a gentleman; I am an unfortunate girl.

Another example of the word not used as a noun but still having the same very obvious meaning.

……

Price and Price - robbery - 5th April 1886

LOUISA SMITH .” I live at 9, Staple Street, Long Lane, Bermondsey—on the Saturday night, 27th February, between six and seven there was a bit of a bother at the corner of Lancaster Street, and I saw the tall prisoner strike the prosecutor, and then the short one went to take his watch—I was about four or five yards away—I could not swear that these are the two men that I saw—I am an unfortunate”

Isnt it strange how many women feel the need to state their level of luck?

……

Louisa Clark - coining offences - 28th June 1886

"I have been an unfortunate girl for a fortnight, and I got 15s. from a gentleman, and I did not know the half-crown was bad.”



……

Eliza Smith - coining offences - 13th September 1886

“I am an unfortunate woman; a young man gave me the shilling.”

Perhaps she was collecting for the Salvation Army Harry?

……

Julia Herbert - coining offences - 13th September 1886

”the prisoner said she was an unfortunate girl, and gave her address 5, Leadcroft Square, Borough—that is a mile and a half from the Earl of Chatham public-house”

Prostitute not destitute.

…….

Robert Ramsay - fraud - 13th September 1886

MARTHA SMITH .” I am an unfortunate, and live at 7, Ship Alley, St. George's—the prisoner stayed with me two or three days in April and then left for some time”

So many unlucky women around at that time Harry.

…….

Elizabeth Jones - coining offences - 25th October 1886


The prisoner in a written defence stated that she was an unfortunate, that the florin had been given to her, and that she did not know it was bad


Maybe the written statement was a forgery Harry?

…….

George Bate - robbery - 25th October 1886

GEORGINA GOODALL . “I am an unfortunate—I live at 147, Vauxhall Bridge Road—on the night of 13th September, about a quarter to 10, I was the worse for drink, and was drinking in the Shakespere in the Buckingham Palace Road”

Another prostitute who wasn’t destitute.

……..

Ada Brown - coining offences - 13th December 1886

Prisoner's Defence. “They were given me by a man to go with him; I am an unfortunate girl.”


I wonder what he wanted her to go with him for Harry?


…….


Ok Harry, at a guess I’d say that I’ve now produced about 40 pieces of EVIDENCE from Old Bailey trials where every single woman, WITHOUT FAIL, who described herself as an Unfortunate was very clearly a prostitute and the overwhelming majority of them at least had a room of their own and so couldn’t be considered destitute. Certainly no men either.

Against this you have produced ZILCH. except for a dictionary quote which doesn’t apply to the point in question.

We have proved beyond all doubt that in the Victorian era the term ‘an Unfortunate’ was accepted to have meant Prostitute.

I await your next piece of wriggling, obfuscation, invention and avoidance.