Work among the fallen as seen in the prison cell

[PaulB]

Herlock,
You're going for overkill. Harry is doing everything he can to avoid admitting he's wrong. All he wants you to do is provide the source which says that "unfortunate" meant prostitute and nothing else. But (a) you have explained that "unfortunate" had multiple meanings and therefore there isn't a source that says it only meant prostitute, (b) but that in certain contexts "unfortunate" did mean prostitute and nothing else, and (c) that anyway you never said "unfortunate" meant prostitute and nothing else, only that "an unfortunate" meant prostitute and nothing else. I take it that you would also be more than happy to see evidence that "an unfortunate" didn't just mean a prostitute, but that Harry hasn't provided any - not the tiniest tittle - of evidence. All this other stuff you are providing, won't matter a hill of beans to Harry, who probably won't read it anyway. I know it's hard, but try and walk away from this. Harry must now prove his case or shut up, but arguing with him isn't going to go anywhere!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I was hoping for integrity Paul. But you’re right…the ball is in Harry’s court. I just hate letting this kind of dishonesty go though but what can you do?

[harry]

And how many times do I have to say Herlock,that a prostitute could have also been an unfortunate but not all unfortunates were prostitutes.You have Herlock produced several names out of 1200 prostitutes,the number the police gave.Unfortunate was a synonym for several types of people,homeless,destitute,etc,most of whom were not prostitutes,and these types numbered in their thousands.It was not a synonym for prostitute excluseively.Archaic,belonging to ancient times.That is what you are basing your claims on Herlock,but even then the word 'Unfortunate' was not exclusive to prostitute.
Seanr,I have given you a reference where you can look up Henry Mcmahon.It is not up to me to do more than that.

[harry]

On second thoughts,


So Seanr, what is your thoughts on what I have posted.I know Herlock will be squimmingand trying to find some excuses,but there it is,an extract from the Gleaner.

[PaulB]

The source is the Daily Gleaner, 14 May 1937; 1937! Not exactly contemporary with 1888.

[Debra A]

On second thoughts,


So Seanr, what is your thoughts on what I have posted.I know Herlock will be squimmingand trying to find some excuses,but there it is,an extract from the Gleaner.

Thanks for producing the source at last, Harry. It appears that you are correct and that there is at least one 1939 source where the word wasn't used to mean prostitute and was applied to one man .
Has it changed my mind on the use of the word 'unfortunate' being a pseudonym for prostitute?--No. But it appears you've won your own personal argument.

[harry]

Quite correct Paul,on the date.One only had to be in Jamaica in 1948,for instance,I was there then, to understand the conditions in certain areas rivalled any that existed in the East end of London 1888.So I am sure that 1937 would have been no better,and the number of unfortunates no less.
I am away for the xmas break,but I look forward to resuming afterwards.

[harry]

Thank you Debra.

[PaulB]

Quite correct Paul,on the date.One only had to be in Jamaica in 1948,for instance,I was there then, to understand the conditions in certain areas rivalled any that existed in the East end of London 1888.So I am sure that 1937 would have been no better,and the number of unfortunates no less.
I am away for the xmas break,but I look forward to resuming afterwards.

The trouble is, Harry, that the use "unfortunate" to mean a prostitute went out of popular use. If it no longer had that meaning in 1937, the reference in the Daily Gleaner doesn't support your argument at all. Have a good break and take care.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And how many times do I have to say Herlock,that a prostitute could have also been an unfortunate but not all unfortunates were prostitutes.You have Herlock produced several names out of 1200 prostitutes,the number the police gave.Unfortunate was a synonym for several types of people,homeless,destitute,etc,most of whom were not prostitutes,and these types numbered in their thousands.It was not a synonym for prostitute excluseively.Archaic,belonging to ancient times.That is what you are basing your claims on Herlock,but even then the word 'Unfortunate' was not exclusive to prostitute.
Seanr,I have given you a reference where you can look up Henry Mcmahon.It is not up to me to do more than that.

You could say it any number of times Harry but it still won’t make it true.

In the Victorian era the term ‘Unfortunate’ meant prostitute and nothing but prostitute. This has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yes I’ve provided numerous examples whilst you have produced nothing. And for some bizarre reason you must believe that it was just a coincidence that every single one of them without fail used ‘Unfortunate’ to mean prostitute.

Ill respond to #214 in an hour or so as I’m just heading out.

[PaulB]

Thanks for producing the source at last, Harry. It appears that you are correct and that there is at least one 1939 source where the word wasn't used to mean prostitute and was applied to one man .
Has it changed my mind on the use of the word 'unfortunate' being a pseudonym for prostitute?--No. But it appears you've won your own personal argument.

The story refers to the visit by a religious leader to the equivalent of a workhouse at the time of the coronation of George VI on 12 May 1937, following the abdication of Edward VIII the previous December. The use of the word in this context meant unlucky.

[Debra A]

The story refers to the visit by a religious leader to the equivalent of a workhouse at the time of the coronation of George VI on 12 May 1937, following the abdication of Edward VIII the previous December. The use of the word in this context meant unlucky.

Yes, I know, Paul. But Harry has produced what he said he had, a reference to a man being referred to as being among a group of 'unfortunates' and it not meaning they were prostitutes-that's basically what he said he had and that's what he produced.

As I said, it hasn't altered anything for me, it doesn't explain why the court's use of unfortunate as a noun refers to women only, and not just women of the homeless class either.

Meanwhile, I see I wrote 'pseudonym' as opposed to 'euphemism' in my last post and I haven't been near the cooking sherry yet!

Someone was asking about Elizabeth's Stride record in 1884 earlier. I found that Elizabeth Stride was picked up by police in 1880 for some reason.

[The Baron]

"Among these unfortunates was Weimar, the virtuous and happy father of a numerous family."


Claudine, Or Humility The Basis Of All The Virtues

A Swiss Tale (1830)

By Maria Elizabeth Budden




The Baron

[PaulB]

Yes, I know, Paul. But Harry has produced what he said he had, a reference to a man being referred to as being among a group of 'unfortunates' and it not meaning they were prostitutes-that's basically what he said he had and that's what he produced.

As I said, it hasn't altered anything for me, it doesn't explain why the court's use of unfortunate as a noun refers to women only, and not just women of the homeless class either.

Meanwhile, I see I wrote 'pseudonym' as opposed to 'euphemism' in my last post and I haven't been near the cooking sherry yet!

Someone was asking about Elizabeth's Stride record in 1884 earlier. I found that Elizabeth Stride was picked up by police in 1880 for some reason.

That's fair enough, but he also implied that the reference was relevant and it isn't.

[The Baron]

In the Victorian era the term ‘Unfortunate’ meant prostitute and nothing but prostitute. This has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The Baron