Work among the fallen as seen in the prison cell

[Ms Diddles]

I just started reading The Case Of The Murderous Dr Cream by Dean Jobb and just 4 pages in we get “Prostitutes were named as ‘unfortunates’ in the press.’”

Looks like everyone is making the same mistake and only Harry is getting it right.

Oh! Please let us know over on one of the review threads if that book is any good.

I have it "saved for later" on my Amazon account.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Oh! Please let us know over on one of the review threads if that book is any good.

I have it "saved for later" on my Amazon account.

Will do Ms D but Paul said this when I asked him about it on another thread:

“I enjoyed it. I'm no authority on Cream, so can't comment on the accuracy, but it was detailed and informative and seemed a solid update on McLaren's book, which seems to have been the standard text for some years. As for Cream's alleged Ripper connection, Jebb doesn't go into it to any degree.”

Ive got the McLaren book too but it has to be 20+ years since I read it.

[harry]

Two sources I refer to are 'The concise English Dictionary',and,'Collins Thesaurus' ,the latter a dictionary of synonyms and antonyms'.Both have 'Unfortunate' listed,but neither state the noun to refer to prostitute and only prostitute.The word prostitute is'nt even included.


Above is a description I copied from the internet,so do'nt claim I do not supply proof of what I write.
I am well aware the Archaic term describes unfortunates in the main,as being prostitutes,but in the main leaves room for other classes of people.I know the word especially is used,but what about the other descriptions,and the Archaic term had all but dissapeared by 1888.
The only desperation Herlock ,is shown by you.Why,if you say I am the only one disagreeing,do you continue posting on the subject.
Let posters now see your reference to the claim 'Unfortunate' means prostitute and nothing else.I claim you made it up.Show differently.
The law considers a person innocent untill proven guilty.Prostitution and soliciting for prostitution reasons was a crime.None of the five was convicted for postitution or soliciting.They must be considered innocent of those crimes.

[PaulB]

Hi Paul,

Wasn't Stride prosecuted and sentenced to a weeks hard labour for being drunk and disorderly, as well as soliciting in 1884?

Unless this was a mis-fire, like in the Cass case, I'm assuming they had evidence to support the charge of soliciting.

Yes, there is. I don't think we have any details though.

[PaulB]

Two sources I refer to are 'The concise English Dictionary',and,'Collins Thesaurus' ,the latter a dictionary of synonyms and antonyms'.Both have 'Unfortunate' listed,but neither state the noun to refer to prostitute and only prostitute.The word prostitute is'nt even included.


Above is a description I copied from the internet,so do'nt claim I do not supply proof of what I write.
I am well aware the Archaic term describes unfortunates in the main,as being prostitutes,but in the main leaves room for other classes of people.I know the word especially is used,but what about the other descriptions,and the Archaic term had all but dissapeared by 1888.
The only desperation Herlock ,is shown by you.Why,if you say I am the only one disagreeing,do you continue posting on the subject.
Let posters now see your reference to the claim 'Unfortunate' means prostitute and nothing else.I claim you made it up.Show differently.
The law considers a person innocent untill proven guilty.Prostitution and soliciting for prostitution reasons was a crime.None of the five was convicted for postitution or soliciting.They must be considered innocent of those crimes.

One last try, Harry:

1. The Concise English Dictionary is a dictionary of current usage and does not contain meanings that have dropped out of favour. Collins Thesaurus is likewise to look up current alternative words. Because both volumes are for current usage, neither assist your argument.
2. Everyone knows the word “unfortunate” has multiple meanings. However, when applied to a woman it meant prostitute. The evidence for that is overwhelming. You have not been able to produce a single example of the opposite.
3. When you claim that the archaic use of the word had “all but disappeared” by 1888, you are making things up. It had not “all but disappeared”, but was very much in vogue, as a perusal of the newspapers for 1888 will quickly show.
4. Herlock says you are the only person disagreeing with the accepted use of “unfortunate” because there is a noticeable absense of people agreeing with you.
5. I suspect Herlock continues to post is because he thinks it is important to show how and why your argument doesn’t hold up. I also suspect that he may feel it’s rude to simply ignore someone when you know they’re wrong, but as there seems little point in continuing this exchange with you, he may well give up.
6. There isn’t a source for saying that “unfortunate” means prostitute and nothing else, nor did Herlock say that. He said “an unfortunate” meant prostitute and nothing else, and he is right. When a woman was called “an unfortunate” it meant she was a prostitute, not someone who had suffered misfortune. That was the accepted usage in 1888 and numerous examples have been provided for you. Just because you claim Herlock made it up, doesn’t mean he has to show you you’re wrong. You are the one making the claim, the responsibility of supporting it rests with you.
7. The law considers a person innocent until proven guilty, but as this is not a court of law and those making the accusation, namely the police of 1888, can’t be here to defend it, we are left to look at the surviving sources to see what evidence, if any, supports their conclusion.

[Simon Wood]

Unfortunates were also known as members of the frail sisterhood.

[The Baron]

Two sources I refer to are 'The concise English Dictionary',and,'Collins Thesaurus' ,the latter a dictionary of synonyms and antonyms'.Both have 'Unfortunate' listed,but neither state the noun to refer to prostitute and only prostitute.The word prostitute is'nt even included.


Above is a description I copied from the internet,so do'nt claim I do not supply proof of what I write.
I am well aware the Archaic term describes unfortunates in the main,as being prostitutes,but in the main leaves room for other classes of people.I know the word especially is used,but what about the other descriptions,and the Archaic term had all but dissapeared by 1888.
The only desperation Herlock ,is shown by you.Why,if you say I am the only one disagreeing,do you continue posting on the subject.
Let posters now see your reference to the claim 'Unfortunate' means prostitute and nothing else.I claim you made it up.Show differently.
The law considers a person innocent untill proven guilty.Prostitution and soliciting for prostitution reasons was a crime.None of the five was convicted for postitution or soliciting.They must be considered innocent of those crimes.

Well said Harry!



The Baron

[harry]

Pleased Paul,you mentioned police arn't here to defend themselves,neither are the victims.Doesn't have to be a court situation,the principle of considered innocent untill proven guilty still prevails.A case is only as strong as the evidence presented. No evidence has been presented that shows the five were soliciting the nights they were killed.No records exists to show the five had been convicted or charged with being prostitutes.Just rumour and innuendo.
The above example of 'Unfortunate' I posted does not show that only women be considered.While I accept that a prostitute could also be an 'Unfortunate',I do not accept that all women classed as 'Unfortunate' were prostitutes,as you and Herlock seem to believe.
Disadvantaged is the term most likely to be used today,but yes I do believe the' archaic use' of the word 'Unfortunate' had all but disappeared by 1888.Some reports has the word being used as early as the 14th century,and there had been constant if small changes over the centuries.I am not making anything up.It is what others have claimed.If you want to disbelieve that,so be it.
So look.Try again.

[PaulB]

I'm sorry, Harry, but I can't afford to bat this around with you any longer. Your arguments have sunk to such a level of absurdity that this can't even masquerade as a serious discussion anymore. First of all you claim you've searched the internet and failed to find any reference to "an unfortunate" as a euphemism for prostitute, but putting that claim to test produced that definition in the blink of an eye. Moreover, you are shown a full reference from the leading dictionary showing that the word was used as stated. Despite being provided with newspaper items from the 1880s, including one from October 1888, you try to argue that the usage had all but disappeared by 1888, whereas a search of the newspaper archives shows that to be utterly untrue. The traditional way these things work is that you, Harry, do not pronounce your personal beliefs and expect everyone to accept what you say, you support your argument with evidence. If you have a single reliable source that says "unfortunate" was hardly ever used by 1888 to mean a prostitute, name it. Until you do, that claim is just so much hogwash. Have a great Christmas, Harry, and let's hope that 2022, despite the signs to the contrary, will be a good year.

[Debra A]

...

The above example of 'Unfortunate' I posted does not show that only women be considered.While I accept that a prostitute could also be an 'Unfortunate',I do not accept that all women classed as 'Unfortunate' were prostitutes,as you and Herlock seem to believe.
Disadvantaged is the term most likely to be used today,but yes I do believe the' archaic use' of the word 'Unfortunate' had all but disappeared by 1888.Some reports has the word being used as early as the 14th century,and there had been constant if small changes over the centuries.I am not making anything up.It is what others have claimed.If you want to disbelieve that,so be it.
So look.Try again.

Anyone of any age or gender can be considered 'unfortunate' if it is in the context of describing their luck.
A woman of any class could be referred to as "an unfortunate" and it be understood by officials that meant she was involved in prostitution. It wasn't a term only applied to a woman of the poorer class or a homeless destitute woman.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Pleased Paul,you mentioned police arn't here to defend themselves,neither are the victims.Doesn't have to be a court situation,the principle of considered innocent untill proven guilty still prevails.A case is only as strong as the evidence presented. No evidence has been presented that shows the five were soliciting the nights they were killed.No records exists to show the five had been convicted or charged with being prostitutes.Just rumour and innuendo.
The above example of 'Unfortunate' I posted does not show that only women be considered.While I accept that a prostitute could also be an 'Unfortunate',I do not accept that all women classed as 'Unfortunate' were prostitutes,as you and Herlock seem to believe.
Disadvantaged is the term most likely to be used today,but yes I do believe the' archaic use' of the word 'Unfortunate' had all but disappeared by 1888.Some reports has the word being used as early as the 14th century,and there had been constant if small changes over the centuries.I am not making anything up.It is what others have claimed.If you want to disbelieve that,so be it.
So look.Try again.

It’s not a case, as you claim, of me and Paul believing that ‘Unfortunate’ meant prostitute Harry it’s a case of EVERYONE accepting it except for you. Why are you so insistent on defending a point that has been proven. You are 100% wrong and a child could see it.

but yes I do believe the' archaic use' of the word 'Unfortunate' had all but disappeared by 1888.Some reports has the word being used as early as the 14th century,and there had been constant if small changes over the centuries.I am not making anything up.It is what others have claimed.If you want to disbelieve that,so be it.
So look.Try again

Absolutely codswallop. How the hell can you as an adult make a statement like that in the teeth of the evidence. How many Old Bailey cases did I show from 1887/1888 where it was used. How many other examples have been shown. If I had time to waste I could post loads more from 1888 and 1889 and 1890 and 1891. And Paul and Debra with better access to records could post even more an from other sources.. You’re claim is utter nonsense and you know it Harry.

Yes we know that language changes over the years. You’re telling us nothing new Harry but that’s not evidence that ‘Unfortunate’ was in decline in 1888. You have the strangest interpretation of logic that I’ve ever known. It’s why we don’t use ‘Unfortunate’ today but these things don’t die out overnight! Unbelievable!

Again Harry you need to take a breather and ask yourself this very obvious question - WHY DOES NO-ONE AGREE WITH ME?

Answer - because you are so very obviously wrong.

How can you claim not to know it?

[Herlock Sholmes]

And you still haven’t provided the evidence that your great grandmother was labelled an Unfortunate despite being asked numerous times.

And you still haven’t provided the evidence that Henry MacMahon was labelled an Unfortunate despite being asked numerous times.

And you still haven’t provided one single example where anyone but a woman has been labelled an Unfortunate despite being asked numerous times.

……..

You have provided one thing. A pointless dictionary cutting which, in the context of this discussion, was utterly irrelevant.

You have turned a blind eye on every single piece of proper evidence that has been provided (in black and white) on here that proves that the term ‘an Unfortunate’ meant specifically prostitute. Absolutely 100% proven.

……

What we have had inflicted upon us is a disgraceful display of ducking and diving, of obfuscation and blatant misinterpretation. Of head-in-the-sand bloody mindedness. This point is just about as clear a point as you can get. The evidence that ‘an Unfortunate’ meant prostitute and nothing else is overwhelming. Yet you still think that you’re right and that The Oxford English Dictionary is wrong and that someone must have hacked into Old Bailey Online and altered the transcripts just to defeat your ludicrous argument.

Posters on here have been more than patient with you Harry despite your very obvious tactics of avoidance. I’ll say it one last time Harry - ask yourself why you’re the only person ANYWHERE that doesn’t accept that ‘an Unfortunate’ specifically meant prostitute.

I think that you know that you’re wrong and that you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it. And let’s face it you have form for this with that equally disgraceful show on the other thread where you simply wouldn’t acknowledge being wrong when you called me a liar and I posted the proof. You just kept ignoring. Everyone saw it and told you but you just couldn’t bring yourself to admit that you’re wrong.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well said Harry!



The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

. .No records exists to show the five had been convicted or charged with being prostitutes

And apparently no record exists of either your great-grandmother or Henry McMahon being labelled ‘an Unfortunate’ either but that doesn’t seem to bother you Harry.

[rjpalmer]

A woman of any class could be referred to as "an unfortunate" and it be understood by officials that meant she was involved in prostitution. It wasn't a term only applied to a woman of the poorer class or a homeless destitute woman.

I may be wrong, but it seems like this would be difficult to prove. Surely it must have been fairly rare for a middle-class or upper-class woman to have been working as an 'unfortunate,' or to have been labeled as such? Are there many examples of this?

Further, of the 96 women whose occupation is listed as 'unfortunate' in the 1881 census, I'm not readily seeing any of them living with a husband, which also seems significant.

I'm not suggesting they weren't working as unfortunates, but would they have been listed as such if they were married and living with their husband?