Work among the fallen as seen in the prison cell

[PaulB]

"Among these unfortunates was Weimar, the virtuous and happy father of a numerous family."


Claudine, Or Humility The Basis Of All The Virtues

A Swiss Tale (1830)

By Maria Elizabeth Budden




The Baron

There were a group of wealthy people who were unprepared to cope with the devestation that in the blink of an eye had reduced them from wealth to penuary, and among the unfortunates was Weimar. What relevance does this have to anything being discussed here? Nobody has said that "unfortunate" didn't have other meanings, as in a group of people unfortunately unaccustomed to wrestling with adversity.

[Herlock Sholmes]

On second thoughts,


So Seanr, what is your thoughts on what I have posted.I know Herlock will be squimmingand trying to find some excuses,but there it is,an extract from the Gleaner.

The quote changes absolutely nothing Harry as Paul and Debra have both said.

The term ‘Unfortunate’ was provably a euphemism for prostitute in Victorian England. As times move on and society has become less prudish on these issues the need for euphemisms naturally lessens until a word or phrase falls out of usage. Obviously these things don’t happen on one particular day or week but over time. This is why the term ‘Unfortunate’ isn’t in use today. This has been explained to you already Harry.

So when we have argued about the accepted use of ‘Unfortunate’ to have meant prostitute in Victorian England you give us an example from Jamaica and 50 years later.

We know that words can be used in all manner of ways whether grammatically correct or incorrect. These can be specific to times or just to locations. I’m have no doubt that if we looked we could find examples of other words used in different ways. Although I can’t produce this Harry (because I can’t recall where I saw it) but a few days ago I saw someone describe some people as ‘this bunch of stupids.’ The phrase stuck in my mind for some reason. Now we know that ‘stupid’ isn’t a noun but it was used as one in this case. So it’s hardly surprising that someone might at some point describe a group of unfortunate people as ‘unfortunates’ is it?

So your quote is irrelevant to the discussion at hand Harry (as I suspect that you already knew.)

…..

There’s little point in continuing unless you concede that you are wrong. Which you undoubtedly are Harry. In Victorian era England an ‘Unfortunate’ was a euphemism for prostitute and nothing else. Not poor, not destitute, not unlucky but prostitute.

You need to ask yourself why no one agrees with you on this (well, apart from one person but his opinion doesn’t count) Do you really think that over the last few years every single person is wrong and that you alone are correct? Come on…

It has been proven.

[The Baron]

In the Victorian era the term ‘Unfortunate’ meant prostitute and nothing but prostitute. This has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The Baron

[PaulB]

Yes, I know, Paul. But Harry has produced what he said he had, a reference to a man being referred to as being among a group of 'unfortunates' and it not meaning they were prostitutes-that's basically what he said he had and that's what he produced.

As I said, it hasn't altered anything for me, it doesn't explain why the court's use of unfortunate as a noun refers to women only, and not just women of the homeless class either.

Meanwhile, I see I wrote 'pseudonym' as opposed to 'euphemism' in my last post and I haven't been near the cooking sherry yet!

Someone was asking about Elizabeth's Stride record in 1884 earlier. I found that Elizabeth Stride was picked up by police in 1880 for some reason.

That's fair enough, but he also implied that the reference was relevant and it isn't.

[The Baron]

"Among these unfortunates was Weimar, the virtuous and happy father of a numerous family."


Claudine, Or Humility The Basis Of All The Virtues

A Swiss Tale (1830)

By Maria Elizabeth Budden




The Baron

[Debra A]

The story refers to the visit by a religious leader to the equivalent of a workhouse at the time of the coronation of George VI on 12 May 1937, following the abdication of Edward VIII the previous December. The use of the word in this context meant unlucky.

Yes, I know, Paul. But Harry has produced what he said he had, a reference to a man being referred to as being among a group of 'unfortunates' and it not meaning they were prostitutes-that's basically what he said he had and that's what he produced.

As I said, it hasn't altered anything for me, it doesn't explain why the court's use of unfortunate as a noun refers to women only, and not just women of the homeless class either.

Meanwhile, I see I wrote 'pseudonym' as opposed to 'euphemism' in my last post and I haven't been near the cooking sherry yet!

Someone was asking about Elizabeth's Stride record in 1884 earlier. I found that Elizabeth Stride was picked up by police in 1880 for some reason.

[PaulB]

Thanks for producing the source at last, Harry. It appears that you are correct and that there is at least one 1939 source where the word wasn't used to mean prostitute and was applied to one man .
Has it changed my mind on the use of the word 'unfortunate' being a pseudonym for prostitute?--No. But it appears you've won your own personal argument.

The story refers to the visit by a religious leader to the equivalent of a workhouse at the time of the coronation of George VI on 12 May 1937, following the abdication of Edward VIII the previous December. The use of the word in this context meant unlucky.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And how many times do I have to say Herlock,that a prostitute could have also been an unfortunate but not all unfortunates were prostitutes.You have Herlock produced several names out of 1200 prostitutes,the number the police gave.Unfortunate was a synonym for several types of people,homeless,destitute,etc,most of whom were not prostitutes,and these types numbered in their thousands.It was not a synonym for prostitute excluseively.Archaic,belonging to ancient times.That is what you are basing your claims on Herlock,but even then the word 'Unfortunate' was not exclusive to prostitute.
Seanr,I have given you a reference where you can look up Henry Mcmahon.It is not up to me to do more than that.

You could say it any number of times Harry but it still won’t make it true.

In the Victorian era the term ‘Unfortunate’ meant prostitute and nothing but prostitute. This has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yes I’ve provided numerous examples whilst you have produced nothing. And for some bizarre reason you must believe that it was just a coincidence that every single one of them without fail used ‘Unfortunate’ to mean prostitute.

Ill respond to #214 in an hour or so as I’m just heading out.

[PaulB]

Quite correct Paul,on the date.One only had to be in Jamaica in 1948,for instance,I was there then, to understand the conditions in certain areas rivalled any that existed in the East end of London 1888.So I am sure that 1937 would have been no better,and the number of unfortunates no less.
I am away for the xmas break,but I look forward to resuming afterwards.

The trouble is, Harry, that the use "unfortunate" to mean a prostitute went out of popular use. If it no longer had that meaning in 1937, the reference in the Daily Gleaner doesn't support your argument at all. Have a good break and take care.

[harry]

Thank you Debra.

[harry]

Quite correct Paul,on the date.One only had to be in Jamaica in 1948,for instance,I was there then, to understand the conditions in certain areas rivalled any that existed in the East end of London 1888.So I am sure that 1937 would have been no better,and the number of unfortunates no less.
I am away for the xmas break,but I look forward to resuming afterwards.

[Debra A]

On second thoughts,


So Seanr, what is your thoughts on what I have posted.I know Herlock will be squimmingand trying to find some excuses,but there it is,an extract from the Gleaner.

Thanks for producing the source at last, Harry. It appears that you are correct and that there is at least one 1939 source where the word wasn't used to mean prostitute and was applied to one man .
Has it changed my mind on the use of the word 'unfortunate' being a pseudonym for prostitute?--No. But it appears you've won your own personal argument.

[PaulB]

The source is the Daily Gleaner, 14 May 1937; 1937! Not exactly contemporary with 1888.

[harry]

On second thoughts,


So Seanr, what is your thoughts on what I have posted.I know Herlock will be squimmingand trying to find some excuses,but there it is,an extract from the Gleaner.

[harry]

And how many times do I have to say Herlock,that a prostitute could have also been an unfortunate but not all unfortunates were prostitutes.You have Herlock produced several names out of 1200 prostitutes,the number the police gave.Unfortunate was a synonym for several types of people,homeless,destitute,etc,most of whom were not prostitutes,and these types numbered in their thousands.It was not a synonym for prostitute excluseively.Archaic,belonging to ancient times.That is what you are basing your claims on Herlock,but even then the word 'Unfortunate' was not exclusive to prostitute.
Seanr,I have given you a reference where you can look up Henry Mcmahon.It is not up to me to do more than that.