Victim Strangulation - Manual or rope?

[Wickerman]

I can't think why this thread was left ....hanging?

It's not that he would care if she died from choking. It's bruises on her jaw. Those take a little time to form, and don't form after exsanguination. Not a lot of time, but about a minute at least. Which means he removes the choking mechanism and grabs the jaw to position the neck for the cut. And he has to grip tightly or it wouldn't bruise at all. Which is where things kinda get weird no matter what the theory.

Unfortunately, Dr Brown does not mention any bruising around the sides of the jaw with Eddowes as was described by Llewellyn with Nichols or by Phillips with Chapman.
Using Llewellyn's more detailed description I envisaged the bruises as being located thus:



The victim has been strangled into unconsciousness and laid down, he places his left hand firmly over her mouth & chin, causing the bruises, thus:



Then proceeds to cut her throat.
Because she is not dead at the point when he presses down on her jaw then the damage to the tissue is done while blood pressure still exists in the capilliaries.
You may think this fleeting period of time is not suficient to cause bruising, but it is not the time it takes for the appearance of bruising to surface which matters. Bruising is known to appear on a body after death. What is important is the time when the damage (pressure) is done (applied).

All we are left with it seems is a series of sort of odd choices. Choking someone unconscious before cutting their throat is odd. The bruises are odd.

Strictly speaking, choking is an internal effect, something blocking the windpipe, either intentionally by an object being forced down her throat, or by accident, by food.
Strangulation is the external effect, either by hand - Manual, or Hanging, or by ligature.
I was arguing on another thread that strangling your victim into unconsciousness while you are carrying a knife is, odd, unless the killer actually derives pleasure from the act of strangulation. Why else would he bother to fight and struggle using considerable effort when he could have simply stabbed her to death and avoid all the potential noise and scuffle, not to mention time-wasting, that strangulation entails.

As luck would have it no-one heard their struggle, but he wasn't to know this.

Regards, Jon S.

[ColdCaseJury]

I think you will find that cause of death is by syncope (loss of blood) due to the severance of the carotid artery (this with reference to Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes).

Regards, Jon S.

So I think you're saying:

Cause of death = blood loss, through cutting of throat.

Lack of arterial spray = suggests victims were subdued.

Likely method of subduing victims = garroting or strangulation.


For the latter, can we rule out chloroform-induced unconsciousness before the throat was cut?

[John Wheat]

If it could be proven Jack used a rope to strangle his victims that would enhance Bury as the likely suspect for being Jack.

[kjab3112]

I personally doubt suffocation (as in lack of oxygen to the lungs) alone would have been rapid enough to cause the incapacitation seen. Direct pressure to both carotid arteries however (possibly with pressure including the carotid bodies) could have caused a rapid drop in blood flow to the brain and a guardsman-esque loss of consciousness (I.e. When a soldiers tight collar causes a faceplant on parade). The other question is ether/chloroform of similar. If Jack was a trained killer (e.g. soldier or butcher) I doubt he would need it, but it would certainly make the initial phase much easier.

My personal view is:
1. Incapacitate by direct carotid pressure
2. Cut throat - cause of death twofold, both hypoxia due to larynx being severed and thus airway compromise, and hypovolaemia due to blood loss
3. Mutilate - degree dependent on time to discovery

[ColdCaseJury]

I personally doubt suffocation (as in lack of oxygen to the lungs) alone would have been rapid enough to cause the incapacitation seen. Direct pressure to both carotid arteries however (possibly with pressure including the carotid bodies) could have caused a rapid drop in blood flow to the brain and a guardsman-esque loss of consciousness (I.e. When a soldiers tight collar causes a faceplant on parade). The other question is ether/chloroform of similar. If Jack was a trained killer (e.g. soldier or butcher) I doubt he would need it, but it would certainly make the initial phase much easier.

My personal view is:
1. Incapacitate by direct carotid pressure
2. Cut throat - cause of death twofold, both hypoxia due to larynx being severed and thus airway compromise, and hypovolaemia due to blood loss
3. Mutilate - degree dependent on time to discovery

Very interesting. How to you best apply carotid pressure? Presumably both hands and from behind (for surprise)? Also, any knowledge required? Army? Medical?

[Wickerman]

If you recall the well known wrestling move when the hooked arm is applied from behind around the neck of the victim - aka "Sleeper hold". The chin of the victim is then directly above the inside of the assailants elbow.
This applies pressure to both sides of the neck (via the bicep muscles & forearm muscles) where the carotid arteries and jugular veins are, but keeps the airways open - the victim can still breath.
In this case blood flow to the brain is slowed causing the victim to fall asleep - hence the name, " sleeper hold".

Manual strangulation with the thumbs pressed on the adams apple is intended to interrupt breathing, but does not inhibit blood flow to the brain - because this attack is frontal, there is no real pressure on the sides of the neck.

The garrote (used from behind) applies equal pressure all around the neck restricting both blood flow to & from the brain, and restricts breathing.

This is a faster and less strenuous method. A basic staple of hand-to-hand combat in the military because using the garrote you do not need to be physically strong to bring down someone twice your size.

[kjab3112]

Very interesting. How to you best apply carotid pressure? Presumably both hands and from behind (for surprise)? Also, any knowledge required? Army? Medical?

I could envisage either the classic choke hold, a garrotte (although no clear evidence) or more likely a relatively large handed man pressing over the pulses given the possible finger marks. Personally I'd think though from behind with the other hand over the mouth (again with possibility of ether etc). Once unconscious the knife cuts the throat.

If you feel the neck pulses with your own hand I doubt it would require both hands in order to exert sufficient pressure, just a strong grip. Prior knowledge would depend on if ether/chloroform were used would require some medical knowledge, if simple strangulation with a gag then purely knowledge of the pulse points which could be either through butchery/slaughterman or military should be sufficient. The key would be how much pressure was enough which leads on to the need to consider previous failed victims (i.e. they lived).

Paul

[kjab3112]

Here's a nice summary of the forces and times required, note how brief the subject needs to have pressure applied to lose consciousness

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/pressure-to-the-neck/

[Abby Normal]

Here's a nice summary of the forces and times required, note how brief the subject needs to have pressure applied to lose consciousness

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/patholo...e-to-the-neck/

Yes we used to do it when we were kids. You will lose conscious ness in about 20 seconds with the compression of the arteries of the neck.

Also, this is also corroborated in MMA where there are a number of different blood chokes that can be applied to the neck area in which fighters will black out in a matter of seconds.


I could see the ripper rendering his victims unconscious in short order probably using his bare hands around the neck while forcing them to the ground.

[Wickerman]

I could see the ripper rendering his victims unconscious in short order probably using his bare hands around the neck while forcing them to the ground.

Hi Abby.
If there were bruising on either side of the neck directly over the veins/arteries, I would agree.

[Robert St Devil]

Hi Paul.

Good post. I like the suggestion of the gag sin chemical additive, much like being smothered out by a pillow. I can accept Wickerman,s drawing as a strong possibility, but I can think of another based on a gag.

If the stout man wrapped the little drunken body of Polly Nichols with his left arm, and he gagged her nose and mouth with some cloth held in his right hand, he may have applied enough pressure, while rendering her unconscious, to leave the impression of his grip. And no one would hear her screams.

The stumbling block for garrotting, i found, was that it was a ,criminal fad, from 25 years prior. There were some cases, but I don,t think that it was a rampant practice in 88. There is a good drawing in From Hell illustrating the suggestion of garrotting. Again i would believe that many suggestions will be based around the presence of neckerchiefs throughout the mystery.

[Michael W Richards]

A thread for the discussion of the alleged strangulation of the victims. If Jack did strangle his victims before cutting the throats, then do you think the medical evidence points to manual strangulation or that he used a rope or cord? Your thoughts and personal opinions?

There is only one Canonical murder that seems to indicate choking was part of the murder...Liz Stride's.