Victim Strangulation - Manual or rope?

[Michael W Richards]

A thread for the discussion of the alleged strangulation of the victims. If Jack did strangle his victims before cutting the throats, then do you think the medical evidence points to manual strangulation or that he used a rope or cord? Your thoughts and personal opinions?

There is only one Canonical murder that seems to indicate choking was part of the murder...Liz Stride's.

[Robert St Devil]

Hi Paul.

Good post. I like the suggestion of the gag sin chemical additive, much like being smothered out by a pillow. I can accept Wickerman,s drawing as a strong possibility, but I can think of another based on a gag.

If the stout man wrapped the little drunken body of Polly Nichols with his left arm, and he gagged her nose and mouth with some cloth held in his right hand, he may have applied enough pressure, while rendering her unconscious, to leave the impression of his grip. And no one would hear her screams.

The stumbling block for garrotting, i found, was that it was a ,criminal fad, from 25 years prior. There were some cases, but I don,t think that it was a rampant practice in 88. There is a good drawing in From Hell illustrating the suggestion of garrotting. Again i would believe that many suggestions will be based around the presence of neckerchiefs throughout the mystery.

[Wickerman]

I could see the ripper rendering his victims unconscious in short order probably using his bare hands around the neck while forcing them to the ground.

Hi Abby.
If there were bruising on either side of the neck directly over the veins/arteries, I would agree.

[Abby Normal]

Here's a nice summary of the forces and times required, note how brief the subject needs to have pressure applied to lose consciousness

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/patholo...e-to-the-neck/

Yes we used to do it when we were kids. You will lose conscious ness in about 20 seconds with the compression of the arteries of the neck.

Also, this is also corroborated in MMA where there are a number of different blood chokes that can be applied to the neck area in which fighters will black out in a matter of seconds.


I could see the ripper rendering his victims unconscious in short order probably using his bare hands around the neck while forcing them to the ground.

[kjab3112]

Here's a nice summary of the forces and times required, note how brief the subject needs to have pressure applied to lose consciousness

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/pressure-to-the-neck/

[kjab3112]

Very interesting. How to you best apply carotid pressure? Presumably both hands and from behind (for surprise)? Also, any knowledge required? Army? Medical?

I could envisage either the classic choke hold, a garrotte (although no clear evidence) or more likely a relatively large handed man pressing over the pulses given the possible finger marks. Personally I'd think though from behind with the other hand over the mouth (again with possibility of ether etc). Once unconscious the knife cuts the throat.

If you feel the neck pulses with your own hand I doubt it would require both hands in order to exert sufficient pressure, just a strong grip. Prior knowledge would depend on if ether/chloroform were used would require some medical knowledge, if simple strangulation with a gag then purely knowledge of the pulse points which could be either through butchery/slaughterman or military should be sufficient. The key would be how much pressure was enough which leads on to the need to consider previous failed victims (i.e. they lived).

Paul

[Wickerman]

If you recall the well known wrestling move when the hooked arm is applied from behind around the neck of the victim - aka "Sleeper hold". The chin of the victim is then directly above the inside of the assailants elbow.
This applies pressure to both sides of the neck (via the bicep muscles & forearm muscles) where the carotid arteries and jugular veins are, but keeps the airways open - the victim can still breath.
In this case blood flow to the brain is slowed causing the victim to fall asleep - hence the name, " sleeper hold".

Manual strangulation with the thumbs pressed on the adams apple is intended to interrupt breathing, but does not inhibit blood flow to the brain - because this attack is frontal, there is no real pressure on the sides of the neck.

The garrote (used from behind) applies equal pressure all around the neck restricting both blood flow to & from the brain, and restricts breathing.

This is a faster and less strenuous method. A basic staple of hand-to-hand combat in the military because using the garrote you do not need to be physically strong to bring down someone twice your size.

[ColdCaseJury]

I personally doubt suffocation (as in lack of oxygen to the lungs) alone would have been rapid enough to cause the incapacitation seen. Direct pressure to both carotid arteries however (possibly with pressure including the carotid bodies) could have caused a rapid drop in blood flow to the brain and a guardsman-esque loss of consciousness (I.e. When a soldiers tight collar causes a faceplant on parade). The other question is ether/chloroform of similar. If Jack was a trained killer (e.g. soldier or butcher) I doubt he would need it, but it would certainly make the initial phase much easier.

My personal view is:
1. Incapacitate by direct carotid pressure
2. Cut throat - cause of death twofold, both hypoxia due to larynx being severed and thus airway compromise, and hypovolaemia due to blood loss
3. Mutilate - degree dependent on time to discovery

Very interesting. How to you best apply carotid pressure? Presumably both hands and from behind (for surprise)? Also, any knowledge required? Army? Medical?

[kjab3112]

I personally doubt suffocation (as in lack of oxygen to the lungs) alone would have been rapid enough to cause the incapacitation seen. Direct pressure to both carotid arteries however (possibly with pressure including the carotid bodies) could have caused a rapid drop in blood flow to the brain and a guardsman-esque loss of consciousness (I.e. When a soldiers tight collar causes a faceplant on parade). The other question is ether/chloroform of similar. If Jack was a trained killer (e.g. soldier or butcher) I doubt he would need it, but it would certainly make the initial phase much easier.

My personal view is:
1. Incapacitate by direct carotid pressure
2. Cut throat - cause of death twofold, both hypoxia due to larynx being severed and thus airway compromise, and hypovolaemia due to blood loss
3. Mutilate - degree dependent on time to discovery

[John Wheat]

If it could be proven Jack used a rope to strangle his victims that would enhance Bury as the likely suspect for being Jack.

[ColdCaseJury]

I think you will find that cause of death is by syncope (loss of blood) due to the severance of the carotid artery (this with reference to Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes).

Regards, Jon S.

So I think you're saying:

Cause of death = blood loss, through cutting of throat.

Lack of arterial spray = suggests victims were subdued.

Likely method of subduing victims = garroting or strangulation.


For the latter, can we rule out chloroform-induced unconsciousness before the throat was cut?

[Wickerman]

I can't think why this thread was left ....hanging?

It's not that he would care if she died from choking. It's bruises on her jaw. Those take a little time to form, and don't form after exsanguination. Not a lot of time, but about a minute at least. Which means he removes the choking mechanism and grabs the jaw to position the neck for the cut. And he has to grip tightly or it wouldn't bruise at all. Which is where things kinda get weird no matter what the theory.

Unfortunately, Dr Brown does not mention any bruising around the sides of the jaw with Eddowes as was described by Llewellyn with Nichols or by Phillips with Chapman.
Using Llewellyn's more detailed description I envisaged the bruises as being located thus:



The victim has been strangled into unconsciousness and laid down, he places his left hand firmly over her mouth & chin, causing the bruises, thus:



Then proceeds to cut her throat.
Because she is not dead at the point when he presses down on her jaw then the damage to the tissue is done while blood pressure still exists in the capilliaries.
You may think this fleeting period of time is not suficient to cause bruising, but it is not the time it takes for the appearance of bruising to surface which matters. Bruising is known to appear on a body after death. What is important is the time when the damage (pressure) is done (applied).

All we are left with it seems is a series of sort of odd choices. Choking someone unconscious before cutting their throat is odd. The bruises are odd.

Strictly speaking, choking is an internal effect, something blocking the windpipe, either intentionally by an object being forced down her throat, or by accident, by food.
Strangulation is the external effect, either by hand - Manual, or Hanging, or by ligature.
I was arguing on another thread that strangling your victim into unconsciousness while you are carrying a knife is, odd, unless the killer actually derives pleasure from the act of strangulation. Why else would he bother to fight and struggle using considerable effort when he could have simply stabbed her to death and avoid all the potential noise and scuffle, not to mention time-wasting, that strangulation entails.

As luck would have it no-one heard their struggle, but he wasn't to know this.

Regards, Jon S.

[Errata]

No-one can claim that he planned the timing, why would he care?
While under the choke hold (ligature/garotte), as soon as she falls limp he lowers her to the ground and lays her out, immediately slicing her carotid artery, away from him so as not to get sprayed.
If I understand you correctly, I think you are taking a timing issue to an extreme.

It's not that he would care if she died from choking. It's bruises on her jaw. Those take a little time to form, and don't form after exsanguination. Not a lot of time, but about a minute at least. Which means he removes the choking mechanism and grabs the jaw to position the neck for the cut. And he has to grip tightly or it wouldn't bruise at all. Which is where things kinda get weird no matter what the theory. The simplest method available would have been to cut her throat as soon as she turned her back on him. But the blood evidence doesn't support that. Arterial spurt clearly would not be a factor in his choice of method, and if she was killed on the ground there wouldn't be evidence of it even if there had been arterial spurt.

All we are left with it seems is a series of sort of odd choices. Choking someone unconscious before cutting their throat is odd. The bruises are odd. The bruises are absolutely consistent from someone grabbing the jaw from behind and jerking it up in order to cut the throat. But even that only makes sense standing upright. A victim flat on her back doesn't need to be controlled through a jaw grip. In fact it's kind of awkward. The only way I can see it working would be if her head was in his lap, but I can't see anyone trying to essentially saw off a head while it's in their lap. If someone was unconscious there is also no need for a tight grip. The bruises are described as recent, more recent than the bruises described as recent in terms of days. And what are the odds of her getting her jaw grabbed in the exact manner ideal for a throat cut the same day she had her throat cut without the jaw grip? The whole thing is weird. But the bruises say that there was about a minute between getting her jaw grabbed and her throat cut, a time during which she would not be being choked. Even if she had been choked and was unconscious, she would be breathing freely long enough to re-oxygenate her blood. Thats what I mean by timing. It's awkward.

I'm sure that is beyond my knowledge, but this condition may have inhibited her ability to stay conscious for your suggested "30 seconds"?
Regards, Jon S.

Well, I've been researching this because I have sort of a vested interest in brain disorders. Essentially, three problems are described. Large amounts of fluid in the brain, clouded membranes, and an extra firm brain. As far as I know the veinous blood in the brain is always dark, and given the autopsy conditions may not have been terribly unusual. Or it may. I haven't found anything regarding the veinous system in the brain yet. Clouded membranes are a function of age. It can indicate toxins or meningitis, but age seems the most reasonable. The extra firm brain part is tough to nail down. It happens in Alzheimer's, but the other indicators weren't there. Swelling or bruising could result in that, which would be related to trauma, but I would have thought there would have been signs of damage even if the skull wasn't cracked. Tearing of the meninges or something. The fluid in the brain is clearly edema, but even that's a puzzle. Edema comes from a growth or from trauma. So tumors, lesions, and a bad whack in the head. And there were no tumors or lesions. But again, I would have thought there would be more signs of damage if it was trauma.

Brain stuff makes me nervous. It makes me want to know more so it will stop wigging me out. As it stands I am trying to determine if my brain is the right firmness. Which mostly consists of wiggling my head. Really freaks me out.

[Wickerman]

Well, here is my thing. First of all I don't believe Rose Mylett was a Ripper victim.

I would prefer to keep that argument separate, there is not enough evidence to argue for that possibility, neither enough to argue against it.

The funny thing is, Chapman to me was always the sticking point in so far as strangulation. The location of her murder was the one that required absolute silence. On the surface that would point to her being strangled, but it takes at least 30 seconds for someone to black out.

Yes, possibly, but none of these victims were in the best of health, exposure to drink, lack of nutritious food, short of sleep, all play a role in the body's ability to resist stress, especially that brought on by a swift choke hold.
I don't think we can hold that "30 seconds" up as some yardstick.

She was right up against a wooden fence, with a neighbor on the other side. If someone was choking her, the neighbor would have heard. He did hear a "no!" and then the sound of someone hitting the fence. That is too quick and too quiet for strangulation.

Well, thats conjecture, there have been all kinds of theories regarding the timing of Cadosch's visit to he yard.
If you notice his statement, he opened the back door to the yard about 5:15am (did he go to an outside toilet?), on his return to the house he heard the "No" and the bump against the fence. The attack (struggle?) could have taken place while he was in the outside toilet (if such was the case). He only heard the final stages of the attack when he walked back to the house.

...So she could not have been dead when her throat was cut. The bruises on her jaw suggest that her head was positioned for the cuts while alive, and she lived for several minutes after or the bruises would not have been as visible as they were.

Agreed, she was likely subdued by the choking, she was not dead when her throat was cut. The severance of the carotid artery is what killed her.

The problem is, choking someone to unconsciousness but not to death is a pretty small window. And people tend to wake up pretty quickly after strangulation. So if he choked her out somehow, he has maybe a minute before she comes to again. Which is fine, except for the bruises on her jaw. By the time the bruises start to form she would likely be conscious again.

No-one can claim that he planned the timing, why would he care?
While under the choke hold (ligature/garotte), as soon as she falls limp he lowers her to the ground and lays her out, immediately slicing her carotid artery, away from him so as not to get sprayed.
If I understand you correctly, I think you are taking a timing issue to an extreme. He wouldn't have cared whether she died while being choked.
Surely, the choking measure is simply the best means of getting her to lay down in a manageable posture. Hitting her over the head is noisy, and she could possibly scream.
According to some sources using a ligature also restricts the voicebox when applied professionally.
Foreigners, especially the Spanish criminal were pretty adept with a garotte. And, only 20 yrs earlier in London there had been a garotting craze, so much so that wicker baskets were invented to use as a neckguard. They were even pictured as a fashion accessory in newspapers of the time.
One past forum member, Michael DiGrazier, obtained a copy of a period paper (1860's) showing this feature.

(her brain)
That is NOT normal. Nor does it have anything to do with asphyxiation. Well, maybe the blood does but certainly not the rest of it. I wonder what on earth it could be?

I'm sure that is beyond my knowledge, but this condition may have inhibited her ability to stay conscious for your suggested "30 seconds"?

Regards, Jon S.

[Errata]

Thankyou Errata.
Medical conditions can mimic a variety of ill's, but the fact dark blood is in all your veins & arteries(?), and not only in some organs, but not others, or in arteries but not veins, will be readily observable by anyone, especially a doctor.
Regards, Jon S.

Well, here is my thing. First of all I don't believe Rose Mylett was a Ripper victim. I just don't see a prevailing... not motive, not even signature, drive maybe? between her murder and say, Annie Chapman. I realize we are all somewhat varied on this topic.

The funny thing is, Chapman to me was always the sticking point in so far as strangulation. The location of her murder was the one that required absolute silence. On the surface that would point to her being strangled, but it takes at least 30 seconds for someone to black out. She was right up against a wooden fence, with a neighbor on the other side. If someone was choking her, the neighbor would have heard. He did hear a "no!" and then the sound of someone hitting the fence. That is too quick and too quiet for strangulation. That's more a pipe to the head kind of timing.

I'm not an expert on fluid dynamics by any means, but her lungs being full of blood is interesting, regardless of what color it is. Her throat was cut while she was lying on her back (or front, but that would take a bit more doing). If she had been upright, both her lungs and her stomach would have been full of blood, as blood emptying from the head or the arteries (but obviously not the veins) in the neck would go down the trachea and the esophagus. But with her on her back, the blood in her lungs could only come from inhaling it. Quite a bit. So she could not have been dead when her throat was cut. The bruises on her jaw suggest that her head was positioned for the cuts while alive, and she lived for several minutes after or the bruises would not have been as visible as they were. The body takes about 5 minutes to fully re-oxygenate.

The way the bruises on the jaw were made and any kind of choke hold or strangulation are mutually exclusive. Not that they can't both be done, but they can't both be done at the same time. The problem is, choking someone to unconsciousness but not to death is a pretty small window. And people tend to wake up pretty quickly after strangulation. So if he choked her out somehow, he has maybe a minute before she comes to again. Which is fine, except for the bruises on her jaw. By the time the bruises start to form she would likely be conscious again. Which if not mobile certainly means screaming, which the jaw hold does nothing to prevent. She may even have been up to some feeble attempt at getting away. But we know this didn't happen because the neighbor didn't hear anything like that. And certainly she was breathing well enough once her throat was cut to fill her lungs with blood. It's a very awkward jumble of events to fit in the strangulation and the bruising and the lungs filled with blood, the neighbor's testimony. Not impossible, just not terribly likely. Of course I suppose it only has to be not impossible once...

On the other hand, I have some dread fascination with the description of her brain.
"The head being opened showed that the membranes of the brain were opaque and the veins loaded with blood of a dark character. There was a large quantity of fluid between the membranes and the substance of the brain. The brain substance was unusually firm, and its cavities also contained a large amount of fluid"
That is NOT normal. Nor does it have anything to do with asphyxiation. Well, maybe the blood does but certainly not the rest of it. I wonder what on earth it could be?