Victim Strangulation - Manual or rope?

[Scorpio]

asphyxiation is possible perhaps when the hand is placed over the nose and mouth. A doctors diagnosis is based on empirical evidence, and the the empirical evidence suggesting strangulation in the mind of a Victorian medic might be no more than bruising or abrasion marks on the neck.No mention of haemorrhaging or broken Hyoid bones here. Some consider the degree of tightness in the knot on Strides scarf, which was much to tight for the wearers comfort, as supporting evidence for the strangulation theory.

[corey123]

Scorpio,

Aspyxiation is stopping the blood flow to the brain resulting in unconsciousness, made by pressure to the arterys, while choking is the fracture of the Hyroid bone. Two completely different types of killing.

In fact, the only mention of Liz's handkerchief is that it was tighly pulled to the left, indicating her killer likely dragged her by the handkerchief. However, while it is possible she was aspyxiated, no evidence supports the claim.

Corey

[Scorpio]

Scorpio,

Aspyxiation is stopping the blood flow to the brain resulting in unconsciousness, made by pressure to the arterys, while choking is the fracture of the Hyroid bone. Two completely different types of killing.

In fact, the only mention of Liz's handkerchief is that it was tighly pulled to the left, indicating her killer likely dragged her by the handkerchief. However, while it is possible she was aspyxiated, no evidence supports the claim.

Corey

Breaking the hyoid doesnt actually kill the person, its just common related factor in strangulation homicides where lack of oxygen to the brain results in death,which is exactly the same as asphyxiation.

[corey123]

Hello Scorpio,

I was refering to the medical definitions for strangulations and choking.

[Errata]

this has always been problematic.

suffocation (by covering the mouth and nose) of a moderately healthy adult is going to result in a hell of a fight and a broken nose. and biting i would think.

ligature strangulation almost always leaves marks, although it's not the material that determines that, but rather the amount of time between removing the ligature and actual death.

garroting could account for some of the women, those who had throat wounds almost all the way around. But certainly not the others.

strangling from the front doesn't constrict the airway enough to prevent screaming usually. its also slow.

the one armed choke hold is problematic in that a tight enough hold supports the victims body weight. which is good if you don't want them face planting after the choke, but bad in that it typically leaves the victims body free to kick, fight, bang against walls, etc.

I have just never been able to see a quick AND quiet way of strangling all of these women.

[corey123]

Hello Errata,

Well we know that Chapman's throat was cut soon after the loss of consciousness, and that Kelly was likely conscious when her throat was cut, the same with Stride. Yes, I think he likely, like you suggested, used the one arm 'choke hold', as it seems the more probable of solutions.

Corey

[Errata]

Hello Errata,

Well we know that Chapman's throat was cut soon after the loss of consciousness, and that Kelly was likely conscious when her throat was cut, the same with Stride. Yes, I think he likely, like you suggested, used the one arm 'choke hold', as it seems the more probable of solutions.

Corey

You know, I realize that just walking up on someone and slitting their throat is nigh impossible. I'm just not exactly sure why strangulation was hit upon. The autopsy reports don't mention any evidence of it, although the assumption is that they were strangled beforehand.

I guess i would like to know if they assumed strangulation for some specific reason, or if they assumed it because they would have had to be immobilized and half dead before the throat was cut. I gotta say, people who are strangled fight like all get out. Air hunger is one of the worst sensations in the world, and can wake people out of full anesthesia. And Chapman was right next to a wooden fence. I would fully expect the sound of her bouncing and kicking off that fence to be heard at the end of the block.

Were I Jack the Ripper, I would whack them on the back of the head with a pipe or a misers purse or something. Quick, quiet, potentially lethal on it's own, and unless the medical examiner carefully probes the head for skull fractures (and come to think of it i don't think any of them did) it goes undetected. If strangling has no supporting evidence other than these women clearly were on the ground and fairly quiescent when their throats were cut, i would make an argument for blunt force trauma instead of strangulation.

And the more I think about it, either way the should have been at least a little damage to the head... great. now thats gonna fester.

[protohistorian]

I would second that. Given the associations made from such diverse wounds it is clear we are not talking about a detail oriented medical treatment of the victims. You could have probabaly hidden a Mack truck under the hair and it escape detection. Dave

[corey123]

Well Errata,

There is a bit of evidence, the swollen tongue, and the fact that in many cases we don't have arterial spray. Plus, there was no blunt force trama, else it would be noted.

Interesting idea, although it is a poor one.

[Errata]

Well Errata,

There is a bit of evidence, the swollen tongue, and the fact that in many cases we don't have arterial spray. Plus, there was no blunt force trama, else it would be noted.

Interesting idea, although it is a poor one.

I don't think it's a poor one. Unprovable, but not out of the question. Only one of the C5 had any kind of evidence of strangulation. Chapman had a protruding tongue, which can happen a few other ways. Most notably dry drowning, or even actual drowning. If she was alive when her throat was cut, surely she choked on her own blood. Of course we don't know if blood was in her lungs or not, but in the end it doesn't matter. All throat cutting victims experience a good degree of dry or regular drowning.

And arterial spray is 2psi, spits out roughly 12 inches. In a wide completely artery severing gash it barely sprays at all. You get just a sort of pulse of only a couple of inches at most. Alter the blood pressure by say, lying down, and it is completely negligible. It would certainly be covered up by pooling blood. It absolutely would not be spraying walls like some demented lawn sprinkler. The worst spray is from nicking an artery, and that just didn't happen here.

Only one of the C5 had any kind of scalp examination. Catherine Eddowes scalp was examined for bruises. And I'm not even entirely sure how much of an exam it could be when her hair was still half up. And they all still had their hair up to a certain extent. I'm not sure I blame a doctor for not wanting to run his hands through blood soaked and lice infested hair searching for skull fractures when they look like they've been torn in half. And there would be no knots on the skull to easily feel through hair. A doctor would have to probe for a squishy spot. Or do that funny but not terribly respectful trick with a long piece of catgut...

I don't think it's ragingly out of of the question. It certainly makes more sense. Can't prove it, but it makes sense.

[dixon9]

was polly's tongue not slightly protruding?i know it had a slight laceration

[Errata]

was polly's tongue not slightly protruding?i know it had a slight laceration

It doesn't say offhand in the autopsy, so I would assume not. On the other hand, since it was abraded presumably from biting the crap out of it, maybe it was.

It turns out there are people out there whose tongues stick out for various reasons. And I never thought about it, but my dad brought it up regarding my best friend for like, 12 years and somehow I never noticed. The thing that connects the tongue to the floor of the mouth was really short, so the back of the tongue was about half an inch farther up in her than most people. And we have a cousin whose tongue sticks out, but its from a birth defect of the jaw. Which I also never noticed. I mean, I think someone would have mentioned that if it were true in either Nichols or Chapman, but it made me wonder if a coroner would be able to know the difference at first glance.

[YankeeSergeant]

Choke holds

O.K., let me ask becuase I'm rather ignorant on the whole forensic area. Would a choke hold such as the police use to subdue a suspect break the hyboid (SP) bone or indeed show on the autpsy? I assume and perhaps our inresident combat instructor of one of you gentlemen or ladies with experience in the field can tell me if this would render the victim unconcious so the killer could finish his task without resistance.

[Errata]

O.K., let me ask becuase I'm rather ignorant on the whole forensic area. Would a choke hold such as the police use to subdue a suspect break the hyboid (SP) bone or indeed show on the autpsy? I assume and perhaps our inresident combat instructor of one of you gentlemen or ladies with experience in the field can tell me if this would render the victim unconcious so the killer could finish his task without resistance.

I imagine it would depend on how one executes the chokehold. If the bend of the elbow is over the adam's apple, I would think not. Pressure would be exerted on the sides and not so much the front. If it's a straight arm across the front of the throat, I would think so.

[Wickerman]

Scorpio,
Aspyxiation is stopping the blood flow to the brain resulting in unconsciousness, made by pressure to the arterys, while choking is the fracture of the Hyroid bone. Two completely different types of killing.
In fact, the only mention of Liz's handkerchief is that it was tighly pulled to the left, indicating her killer likely dragged her by the handkerchief. However, while it is possible she was aspyxiated, no evidence supports the claim.
Corey

There's a few things here that need clarification.

Asphyxiation relates directly to the deprivation of oxygen to the lungs, it does not directly stop blood flow to the brain.

Pressure applied to the jugglar veins directly reduces blood flow to the brain but the victim is still able to breath. When such action is applied the victim invariably falls asleep, unconscious.

None of the Cannonical Ripper victims showed signs of manual strangulation.
Chapman's neck did show marks (scratches?) which ran contrary to the alignment of the cuts across the throat.
Put plainly, without photographic evidence to the contrary, this observation suggests the scratches were vertical to the horizontal cut.
Interpretation:
Chapman scratched her own neck in an attempt to remove something tight & thin like a cord?
Medical evidence not recorded by the press at the Chapman inquest indicated her heart & lungs contained black fluid blood.
This is consistent with the victims heart continuing to beat after her ability to take in breath was halted. Direct evidence of asphyxiation.

With respect to the previous Whitechapel murders, Dr. Brownfield, after viewing the body of Rose Mylett was of the opinon that the Whitechapel Murderer had used his knife to cut along the line produced by a garotte/string/cord/ligature which had been first applied to induce unconsciousness. Thereby removing the evidence that a ligature had been used.

Example of the line produced by a garotte/ligature.

Courtesy, Crime Scene, Larry Ragle, 2002