Victim solitary

[John Bennett]

I believe a witness claimed to have seen Chapman in a pub shortly after 5 in the morning of her murder.

I don't recall the name of the witness if it was ever made public.

This sounds like the story from the pot-man of the Ten Bells. This version is from The Star, 8 Sept:

"The proprietor of the Ten Bells is Mr. E. Waldron. The house stands on the corner of Spitalfields Market, and opens early for the convenience of those who bring their goods from the country. One of the assistants gave some information to our reporter with reference to the rumor that the murdered woman was seen there this morning. He said: A woman did call in here about five o'clock. She was poorly dressed, having no bodice to her skirt. She was middle-aged. She just had something to drink, when a man called for her. He just popped his head in the door and retired immediately afterwards. He had on a little skull cap, and was, as far as I could see, without a coat. But he gave me no opportunity of seeing him. I think, however, I should know his face again, and I think I would also know the woman. The description of the woman corresponds to a certain extent, especially with regard to age, hair, and clothing, with that of the victim of to-day."

[sdreid]

Thanks John. You are very probably correct on that.

[sdreid]

Do we know the name of this witness? Was his story thoroughly checked? I wonder who would be shadowing Chapman if that was her.

[curious]

Do we know the name of this witness? Was his story thoroughly checked? I wonder who would be shadowing Chapman if that was her.

very intriguing story!

[RedBundy13]

time of death

I am under the firm belief that Chapman was killed some time prior to 4:30 am, and after 2:30. I believe that Richardson had just plain not noticed her when he checked on the basement door and also sat and worked on his boot. The reason I believe this is because when Dr. Phillips 1st examined her he said that she had been dead for a minimum of 2 hours and this was at 6:30 in the morning. Only when confronted with the statements of some of the "reliable" witnesses did he change that and say that he could have been mistaken because of how cold it had been. This from a coroner that had been doing this for years and had plenty of experience working with bodies that were found in the cold. My opinion is that she was last seen leaving the lodging house at around 2am and shortly after had had the bad luck to run into the Ripper and that 'was all she wrote' for her. Prob between 2:45 and 3:45 if I had to guess a time. Again thats just an opinion but its also my firm opinion.

[lynn cates]

Long and Cadosch

Hello Red. Interesting observation. Dr. Phillips was an excellent medical person and his testimony should carry great weight.

Do you have an alternate explanation for the Long and Cadosch events?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Hello All.

Don't have my reference material to hand, so I can't check against the relevant map for the first one:
Nichols : only victim killed in Whitechapel?
Chapman: only victim killed at foot of steps.
Stride: only victim killed on private land visible from the street.
Eddowes: only victim known to have used an alias name shortly before dying?
Kelly: only victim to have a version of her name used by another victim.

[RedBundy13]

Do you have an alternate explanation for the Long and Cadosch events?

Cheers.
LC

Ooohh yes Lynn thank you for asking, I actually started writing it yesterday but it was going to be so long I figured I would just save it for another thread. One thing that I am sure of, and keep in mind this is just my opinion, is that Cadoche definitely did not hear the murder of Chapman. Think about this, put yourself in his shoes, you are walking up the stairs into your house when from somewhere you hear someone say "no". Your not really sure where it came from but you look in the direction that you thought you had heard it, and see nothing. You don't just forget about it and walk into your house right? Because if you do look and do see someone there, well then that would make sense because the person is only about 4' to 7' away from you, behind a 4.5' to 6' quickly assembled fence. You will for sure see who ever it was because you are on top of your stairs and are looking down just about on top of the person because you are standing about 3' off of the ground looking right over the fence. Okay, lets just say you ignored hearing someone say "no", never even bothered to look but now you are out in your yard again and are walking towards your stairs and this time you hear what sounds to you like something falling against the fence. What do you do? What does anyone do in that situation? They would look right? Or at least pay it more attention as you are walking towards and up your stairs. When you get to the top wouldn't you at least try and take a glance over the fence and see what had happened? I mean , you just had heard someone say no just prior to that, right? That's at least what I would try and do, that's something that I like to do and that is to put myself in their position and try and see what I would do.
But OK, lets just forget all of that and go on to my main point which is that there is no way there was 2 people that were 3' away from him, behind a rickety fence that he most likely could have seen over while standing on the ground, and not noticed them if he looked. Let alone one of those persons was murdering the other. In my opinion, that would be a physical impossibility for any person being a few feet away from someone murdering another and not to have heard anything of the sort. There would have been struggling, gurgling, hiting, kicking, just plain someone fighting for their life. Now of coarse most of those only qualify if the person wasn't already unconscious. Now if the person was already knocked out well just the act of cutting someones throat open makes some noise, more then just a little. It is one of the most gruesome things you could ever hear, first there is a kind of loud pop when the air 1st rushes out, then there is loud gurgling when that person is still trying to breath but is drowning in their own blood. And that can go on for more time than most people think. For sometimes up to a minute or more and like I said it is loud. Loud enough to hear from behind a closed door. (in case ur wondering how it is that i know this, its because i am a hunter and ive heard it more than a couple of times. Also its on some Faces of Death movies- its pretty gross stuff)
I know what your gonna say and thats 'well, would if she's already dead and the Ripper is just sitting quitely while waiting for Cadoche to leave.' And, my reply would be is that where did the noises come from that he supposedly had heard then? Maybe thats not your question and your in agreement with me, but I'm sure it's someones statement
And as for Mrs. Long, I don't know, she's always struck me as someone who was looking for some attention and notoriety I guess. I don't really trust what she says. One reason is her times do not add up with Cadoches. There was another reason but I just can't think of it right now and it's bugging me. I'll have to get back to you on that one. So Lynn, what do you think, agree with some of it, all of it, or is it none of it?

[RedBundy13]

Hello Red. Interesting observation. Dr. Phillips was an excellent medical person and his testimony should carry great weight.

Do you have an alternate explanation for the Long and Cadosch events?

Cheers.
LC

And forgot to say that, yes, I do know that Im not the first person to say all that on here but it is something that I really do believe. My opinion of coure. Someone with as many posts as you has prob. heard most everything huh?

Cheers to you,
Bundy

[DVV]

Hello Red. Interesting observation. Dr. Phillips was an excellent medical person and his testimony should carry great weight.
LC

Certainly, Lynn. Police failure owes him so much.

Dvvvv

[lynn cates]

alternate solution

Hello Red. Thanks. The usual solution for Long and Cadosch in that case are that 1. Long saw another prostitute and punter, 2. Cadosch heard "No" when they saw Annie's body. I believe Casebook has a dissertation to that effect.

Yes, I have heard a good many things from a good many quarters. A problem with the "JTR" case is that, not only is much information lacking but we have a plethora of puzzle pieces that do not fit. But which items to disregard?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

equivocation

Hello David. Hmm, do you mean the police failed BECAUSE of him or in SPITE of him?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

And as for Mrs. Long, I don't know, she's always struck me as someone who was looking for some attention and notoriety I guess. I don't really trust what she says. One reason is her times do not add up with Cadoches. There was another reason but I just can't think of it right now and it's bugging me. I'll have to get back to you on that one. So Lynn, what do you think, agree with some of it, all of it, or is it none of it?

I suspect Mrs. Long meant well and convinced herself, but . . . I wonder if she even saw someone there the day of the murder, or if it could have been some other day, some other memory.

I drive to work and back every day and once I've reached my destination, it is likely I can't tell you any car I passed, not for sure. I won't remember whether there was something coming when I got to the highway and so I had to wait for the other car to pass.

The point I am making is that when you do something every day, back and forth, you're not always concentrating on where or what you're passing. Just this week, I came up on two sheriff's department cars that seemed to have stopped a little square gray car. Then I met another sheriff's car. I recall that the officer who waved me on from one of the cars was wearing a short sleeved shirt. I can close my eyes and see that, and so, I know the exact location.

I don't remember though what day of the week that was. Thursday? maybe Wednesday? And that is the only incident I remember from a week's worth of driving.

White Chapel being White Chapel, how many prostitutes and punters would Long have routinely passed? What real chance is there that she paid attention to them all and could separate them into which day and which location (location would be easier for me, because I can close my eyes and see the couple, but not be sure which day).

That's my take on Long. Well meaning. Perhaps trying to be helpful, trying to remember something that might be relevant.

By the way, RedBundy, I'm totally with you. I believe Annie was long dead by 5:30. (but different thread maybe if we wish to continue this discussion?)

[RedBundy13]

[QUOTE=lynn cates;202786]
Yes, I have heard a good many things from a good many quarters. A problem with the "JTR" case is that, not only is much information lacking but we have a plethora of puzzle pieces that do not fit. But which items to disregard?


Hi Lynn,
I agree totaly. I have heard before that someone said that all the info. there is to find on JtR has already been found. But since Iv'e discovered this sight I realize that that is just not true. People are still finding newer and better pieces of the puzzle all the time. Maybe a big piece of the pie is right around the corner just waiting to be found?

[RedBundy13]

[QUOTE=curious;202814]I suspect Mrs. Long meant well and convinced herself, but . . . I wonder if she even saw someone there the day of the murder, or if it could have been some other day, some other memory.



Hey curious,
Great post! Makes total sense, I also thought the same thing that maybe she had her days mixed up as well. Cause like you said, people can very easily remember a whole lot about a particular incident or a certain someone but can be off on the date or days of the week. Eyewitness testimony is one of the hardest things to judge how accurate it is. And yes I would be interested in a thread about Annie Chapmans time of death. Keep me informed