Who was Jack's first murder poll!

[Abby Normal]

Certainly at the time Emma Smith was counted as a Ripper victim. The Coroner at Polly Nichols' inquest speaks of four victims:"all four victims were married women", and names them all. It seems to me that the murders progressed in violence, from Emma Smith, who wasn't stabbed but her genitals seemed to be of interest to the murderer. A good deal of violence was used against her - what does it take to almost rip off an ear? (apart from her other injuries). Tabram was stabbed but throttled first (perhaps the need to subdue the victim occurred to her killer after a struggle with Emma Smith). With Nichols came the first "rippings", which became worse with every victim (barring Stride, of course - interrupted?).

I also believe that the killer had at least attempted murder, if not actually murdered before he began his career as the Ripper (conjection).

Best wishes,
C4

Hi C4
I would go with Annie Millwood, just possibly ada Wilson also.

[curious4]

Hello Stan,


Chapman.

Best wishes,
C4

[sdreid]

Who was the fourth victim he named - Millwood, Fay, Horsnell?

[curious4]

First murder

Certainly at the time Emma Smith was counted as a Ripper victim. The Coroner at Polly Nichols' inquest speaks of four victims:"all four victims were married women", and names them all. It seems to me that the murders progressed in violence, from Emma Smith, who wasn't stabbed but her genitals seemed to be of interest to the murderer. A good deal of violence was used against her - what does it take to almost rip off an ear? (apart from her other injuries). Tabram was stabbed but throttled first (perhaps the need to subdue the victim occurred to her killer after a struggle with Emma Smith). With Nichols came the first "rippings", which became worse with every victim (barring Stride, of course - interrupted?).

I also believe that the killer had at least attempted murder, if not actually murdered before he began his career as the Ripper (conjection).

Best wishes,
C4

[sdreid]

They knew a serial killer was about then.

[sdreid]

Yes, I think the Chapman murder was the one that finally amped up the concern.

[RockySullivan]

Right but a car alarm isnt life threatening. You'd think if the residents of whitechapel where on high alert for a serial killer who struck in the streets in the late night/early morning, hours hearing someone scream murder! My first thought would be "it's the ripper!"

Edit: whoops I just realized we are talking about Tabram which is before the rippings started so I'm totally off here. And Kelly's cry came from inside and up until then Jack was only known to strike outdoors my bad

[GUT]

Well if there's a murderer on the loose in your neighborhood and you hear some screaming bloody murder...literally...don't expect the ripper to get caught if your gonna so nothing.

But there is no evdence at all that anyone heard screaming of "bloody murder" there are reports that some people hear a cry of murder, which was common.

If you live in the city to you go running to check if you hear a car alarm go off, no one near me does, because it is as common as mud.

[RockySullivan]

Well if there's a murderer on the loose in your neighborhood and you hear some screaming bloody murder...literally...don't expect the ripper to get caught if your gonna so nothing.

[gnote]

Certainly the neighbours of Kelly [If my memory fails not] said that cries of murder were common.

Even if they were not as common as she claimed i think it's pretty easy to explain away. Some shout in the middle of the night in a very rough neighborhood? I'm thinking the vast majority of people are not going to rush out of bed to investigate. Maybe if anything they listen for another few minutes and when they don't hear anything else dismiss it.

[GUT]

Certainly the neighbours of Kelly [If my memory fails not] said that cries of murder were common.

[gnote]

Could the difference in Tabrams murder be due to the ripper being unprepared and having the wrong kind of knife for the job? I think it's strange neighbors in Tabram & Kelly murder both heard cries of "murder" and yet nothing was done to help.

I've found the bolded part a bit of a curious contradiction as well. In some accounts we hear that it was not just the police but the public who had a heightened sense of awareness or even vigilance. On the other hand witnesses who claim to have heard literally the word 'murder' but thought nothing of it because such cries were commonplace.

[RockySullivan]

Could the difference in Tabrams murder be due to the ripper being unprepared and having the wrong kind of knife for the job? I think it's strange neighbors in Tabram & Kelly murder both heard cries of "murder" and yet nothing was done to help.

[gnote]

Hi Harry
I see what your saying-thanks for clarifying.

Yes there was strong indications Tabram was strangled and the experts thought so.

I suppose its possible Nichols was his first human victim, but I really don't think so, so we will disagree.

Most serial killers start with crimes and violence and attacks on victims that look very different than their mature MO.

Also, what if earlier attacks are triggered by anger, thus the apparent "frenzied" different look to the stabbing? once the first kill is made (out of anger) it sets the killer on the path to satisfy his more deeper psychological needs-ripping, mutilation, organ removal.

Plus there is a litany of other things that tie Tabram to the others-the final straw for me was the body being found like the others- with the victim on the back, legs spread, and skirt being lifted up. something is going on here, something specifically being targeted, that is in a single killers mind.

While i don't have a strong opinion one way or the other other regarding Tabram it could be some psychological barrier was removed if she was his first victim. Even for the disturbed among society it's probably some kind of milestone to actually commit their first homicide. I also would imagine most serial killer's MO/signature would not be fully developed with an early victim. That could certainly account for the supposed "sloppiness" if done by the same hand as the C5.

It still seems quite the leap from Tabram to Nichols in such a short period of time however.

[Abby Normal]

Hello, Abby.

You're missing the point that I made. There was a certain skill involved with at least three of the canonical five, our man was proficient with a blade and knew how to dispatch his victims and what he was aiming for. Read Errata's recent post on how difficult it actually is to cut someone's throat, nevermind to the point of near decapitation.

That's one reason why people, mistakenly in my book, choose to add Tabram to the list, because they don't buy that the Ripper could kill in this manner without some kind of practice victim. The only problem is that Tabram's murder was only three weeks before Nichols and doesn't show a 'progression' in technique that one could identify with the other victims. If, say, Tabram had a shallow cut to the throat, then that would certainly add some credibility to the idea, but then you're still left with the frenzied stabbings to the body and none of the deliberate mutilations exhibited by the Ripper in the later killings. That's why I'm saying that the Ripper already had enough crude knowledge of slaughter and cutting things up that he could cleanly murder Nichols without shoehorning some 'trial run' into the mix.

For me, Tabram was in all likelihood murdered by a soldier (who wasn't the Ripper). It tallies up with her movements that night, we have two murder weapons (one of which believed to be a bayonet), and the furious nature of the stabbings indicate a different kind of motive and method to the one soon to be characteristic of the Ripper.

Btw, do we know that Tabram was strangled? I like the idea that she was knocked unconscious and I'm led to believe the post-mortem evidence supports this. Strangulation wouldn't necessarily prove anything anyway, as it's a pretty common method of killing someone.

Hi Harry
I see what your saying-thanks for clarifying.

Yes there was strong indications Tabram was strangled and the experts thought so.

I suppose its possible Nichols was his first human victim, but I really don't think so, so we will disagree.

Most serial killers start with crimes and violence and attacks on victims that look very different than their mature MO.

Also, what if earlier attacks are triggered by anger, thus the apparent "frenzied" different look to the stabbing? once the first kill is made (out of anger) it sets the killer on the path to satisfy his more deeper psychological needs-ripping, mutilation, organ removal.

Plus there is a litany of other things that tie Tabram to the others-the final straw for me was the body being found like the others- with the victim on the back, legs spread, and skirt being lifted up. something is going on here, something specifically being targeted, that is in a single killers mind.