Who was Jack's first murder poll!

[Phil H]

Apart from the location (which was possibly in Jack's territory - on the assumption that Stride was a JtR victim) I see no reason for assuming that the Pinchen St torso was the work of our man. The state of the "body" does not really tie in fo me.

I am aware of the view (in my opinion, flimsy) that it would be odd for more than one murderer to be at work in the same urban area at the same time. Yet we know of other "domestics" (though I do not believe the torso was from one of those) and we also have - much more to the point - the well established "Torso killer".

Now, if you include in your 14 the Pinchen St torso, why not also the New Scotland Yard remains, or other bodies found in or near the River Thames in that or adjacent years? Surely they bear more similarity to the Pinchen St remains than JtR's usually ascribed work?

Further - what about the possibility that the Torso Killer placed the Pinchen St torso in "Jack's" patch deliberately, to taunt, to compete or for some other reason?

I'd be interested in your views, Uncle Jack,

Phil

[sdreid]

Hi Adam:

I have seen some old Ripper accounts that actually give 14 as a possible number but I doubt they are exactly the same as your 14.

[Uncle Jack]

I personally have a Canonical 14. I know my opinion will be greatly disagreed with but that is just me.

01. Annie Millwood
02. Ada Wilson
03. Malvina Haynes
04. Martha Tabram
05. Mary Ann Nichols
06. Annie Chapman
07. Catherine Eddowes
08. Mary Kelly
09. Rose Mylett
10. Alice McKenzie
11. Pinchin Street torso
12. Frances Coles
13. Jane Thomson
14. Mary Ann Austin

I think my view about Mylett will be disputed but it is a known fact that killers can change their methods of murder during their killings. Take serial killer Trevor Hardy, the Beast of Manchester. His first victim, Janet Stewert, was stabbed to death and buried in a shallow grave. Six months later he then changed his method and used a brick to batter Wanda Skala to death. Trevor Hardy went from stabbing to battering in a space of a few months. Again he changed his methods with his third victim when he reverted back to stabbing but also included strangulation in the murder. With facts like this then I can accept that Jack strangled Mylett and could possibly have intended to carry out mutilations afterwards but was interrupted.

[Wickerman]

I think there is a hint of 'method' with Nichols, it is not difficult to see from her wounds that he intended to do to Nichols exactly what he succeded doing with Chapman.
This suggests he mentally set himself a sequence to follow, a methodical approach, step 1, 2, 3, etc. If this is correct then he may have killed before, I just do not see the attacks against Millwood, Wilson or Tabram as being the build-up to Nichols.

I also don't see this as indicative of how a mentally ill person (mania, lunacy, etc.) would organize their procedure, but then it is also very easy to read too much into these crimes.
As things sit at the moment I take Nichols as his first Whitchapel murder, but possibly not the first person he has ever killed.

Regards, Jon S.

[sdreid]

Her stock seems to have gone up of late.

[sdreid]

It seems like too big a coincidence otherwise. Not that it's impossible of course.

[sdreid]

I think that Millwood likely died as a result of the attack also.

[Phil H]

Tabram doesn't strike me as a Ripper victim - the ferocity, the stabbing rather than cutting action, suggest something different at work, at least to me.

The suggestion of two different weapons makes me wonder about a gang, as with Smith (maybe the same one). The emergence of "Jack" may then have put them off. I suspect that there was something

I'll probably be proved wholly wrong one-day.

Millwood is always a possible as an early "attempt" though the circumstances seem a little odd.

The other possibility is that, as Robin Odell argued years ago, JtR honed his skills on animals as some sort of "slaughterman" (Jewish or otherwise). which might at least have given him practice in throat cutting and keeping clear of blood spray. Odell is out of fashion and has been for a long-time, but the authors of my younger days gave a lot of thought to these killings and some imagination. (Mocked nowadays, even the mad midwife of Doyle and Stewart is an admirable attempt to think outside the box, IMHO.)

Phil

[Lechmere]

I am as certain as anyone could be art this remove that Nichols wasn’t the first.
I think Tabram was the first outright murder. I think the Smith case may have given him ideas (but wasn’t him) and Millwood and Wilson may have been his early work.
I think it is likely that Millwood died from injuries resulting from her attack, in which case she should count as a murder victim, and I think it is likely that she was attacked by the same person. However that makes two areas of doubt so I would have to stick with Tabram as the first certain Ripper murder.

[Phil H]

Stan

Does anyone think that Jack started murdering before 1887?

He might have done.

I have seen views expressed (and which I am sympathetic to) that it is unlikely JtR started out as a full-scale murderer/mutilator (i.e. with Polly Nichols).

I have also seen it said that such people often begin with cruelty to animals or lesser violence.

So I think a case could well be made for an earlier commencement of violence/murder, but I have no idea who the victims might have been or even if they were in the UK.

I don't know how you would ever tie this down. I suppose court records might reveal a violent individual who had offended earlier but was at liberty in the period August-November 1888.

Phil

[sdreid]

Does anyone think that Jack started murdering before 1887?

[sdreid]

But 0-2 for before 1887.

The 2 being the possibles in the Another category.

[Fisherman]

Nothing to see:

"Fisherman, you sometimes get things wrong."

That is correct. At least I think so. But, as you point out, I may be wrong here ...

The best,
Fisherman

[sdreid]

But 0-2 for before 1887.

[sdreid]

Three to five.