For what reason do we include Stride?

[Robert St Devil]

It makes more sense that Stride had the cachous because she was with a punter or suitor moments before her death and her guard was down, than ending up there with them still in hand after she assaulted.

It just occurred to me something Michael posted, about cigarette makers living in the yard. And, then, cachous being described as breath freshers for smokers. Could it be that Jack's lure was to smoke a cigarette with Liz there in the gateway?
* I think a cigarette case was found at the Eddowes' murder site too.

Also, I was thinking, if he doesn't kill Liz but goes on to murder Catherine (for those that connect C3 to C4), wouldn't he be leaving a living witness against himself? One who could describe him.

[Wickerman]

So, his presentation does appear to jump back and forth, which I find an odd sequence of presentation, but again, spoken language is odd like that at times.

Hi Jeff.

We probably expect different things. In my view it is necessary to describe a cut and follow that cut to it's termination. This is easier for medical professionals to understand. This is why he described one superficial cut, from start to finish (left to right). Then began again at the left with the next cut. The fact he omitted to prefix each statement with "cut 1" and "cut 2" has thrown us off.

By the way, you mentioned some potential inaccuracy in the way the press may have recorded what was said. I actually used the court record written by the Coroner so as to avoid potential press errors.

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

But if Stride has the cachous in her hand (and remember they are only wrapped in tissue paper) how likely is it that they survive her being pushed to the ground if she puts out her hands flat to break her fall which is what people do naturally? And if she again spreads her hands and puts her weight on them in order to push her self back up (again a natural reaction) they have to withstand that as well. And if she is being dragged into the yard to her death is her first thought I really need to protect these cachous? When you push someone away you don't do it with a closed fist you used the palm of your hand.

It seems to me the logical conclusion is that she didn't have them in her hand when thrown to the ground but took them out expecting to entertain a client after the BS man had left. Her death at the hands of her killer (who I believe was Jack) was so swift and unexpected that she clutched them in death.

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

We probably expect different things. In my view it is necessary to describe a cut and follow that cut to it's termination. This is easier for medical professionals to understand. This is why he described one superficial cut, from start to finish (left to right). Then began again at the left with the next cut. The fact he omitted to prefix each statement with "cut 1" and "cut 2" has thrown us off.

By the way, you mentioned some potential inaccuracy in the way the press may have recorded what was said. I actually used the court record written by the Coroner so as to avoid potential press errors.

Hi Wickerman,

Yes, I agree that the court records are the source to rely on, so thanks for pointing that out. And indeed, we all view and interpret descriptions of events based upon our own expectations and idiosyncratic uses of language, and also have to remember that the same applies to the speaker/writer. Language use, and such, differs today from Victorian times in subtle ways and styles of presentation.

Anyway, the diagram seems to have cleared it up, and I wish I had located it earlier but greatly appreciate your posting it here.

Interesting how both cuts seem to meet at a common point (left side of the image). It strikes me as if the superficial cut, which I'm assuming was the 2nd made, could have been made in the reverse direction, like a "return slash", but that's neither here nor there really.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

The Schwartz, PC Smith sighting happened some 15 minutes before Deimshutz entered the yard, so yes he had ample time to mutilate

Yes, the PC Smith encounter was placed about 12:35, but the Schwartz encounter was 12:45, then Diemschitz turns up at 1:00am.

I think we have always timed her attack directly subsequent to Schwartz running away, which may be a mistake.

Blackwell said he estimated her death to be 20-30 minutes before he showed up at 1:16.
So, at the latest that would be the 20 min. option placing her death/attack at 12:56.

Diemschitz rumbles through the gate at 1:00am (give or take).

The killer had only minutes and must have heard the clip-clop of a cart getting closer.

If we take the 30 min. option then yes, he may have had time to mutilate.

[Robert St Devil]

It seems to me the logical conclusion is that she didn't have them in her hand when thrown to the ground but took them out expecting to entertain a client after the BS man had left. Her death at the hands of her killer (who I believe was Jack) was so swift and unexpected that she clutched them in death.

c.d.

Hi c.d.
I want to say that one of the odd little mysteries of this case was the cachous paper. I'm no expert on the cachous industry but it seems like, if Liz had purchased them, the seller could have been traced by the cachous paper wrapping. However I can't say with certainty that this was the case, I'd have to work to remember where I saw that note.

[c.d.]

Hello Wick,

Time to mutilate and an environment in which he felt safe enough to do so are two different things.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.
I want to say that one of the odd little mysteries of this case was the cachous paper. I'm no expert on the cachous industry but it seems like, if Liz had purchased them, the seller could have been traced by the cachous paper wrapping. However I can't say with certainty that this was the case, I'd have to work to remember where I saw that note.

Hello Robert,

I am afraid you lost me here. This would tell us what? And it wouldn't rule out the possibility that they were given to her.

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,

But if Stride has the cachous in her hand (and remember they are only wrapped in tissue paper) how likely is it that they survive her being pushed to the ground if she puts out her hands flat to break her fall which is what people do naturally? And if she again spreads her hands and puts her weight on them in order to push her self back up (again a natural reaction) they have to withstand that as well. And if she is being dragged into the yard to her death is her first thought I really need to protect these cachous? When you push someone away you don't do it with a closed fist you used the palm of your hand.

It seems to me the logical conclusion is that she didn't have them in her hand when thrown to the ground but took them out expecting to entertain a client after the BS man had left. Her death at the hands of her killer (who I believe was Jack) was so swift and unexpected that she clutched them in death.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

Depends upon how she falls, to her right side, then left hand holding the cachous doesn't some into play. Once pushed/forced/fleeing into the alley, particularly if the scarf was grabbed resulting in her tripping (probably landing on a knee, not fully prone), then now she's in a position that the newcomer has to somehow get her in without dropping the cachous, so we're at the same point - hence, I don't see why BS makes it improbable.

To me, if there's a newcomer, who attacks her suddenly and unexpectedly, that would be a 2nd attack on her that still would have afforded sufficient time to open her hands and grab at him to fend herself because this assault has to start with her standing and it has to be long enough to get her to the ground and cut her throat. I would think a 2nd physical attack on her would be even more likely to result in her dropping them than if BS, during his attack in which I'm suggesting she was already holding them throughout because it wasn't of murderous intensity, simply because I think it gets Stride "to the ground" during that encounter.

We're of different opinions in the relative plausibilities, which amounts to differences of opinions. I don't think either of us is necessarily wrong, but we can take comfort in knowing that one of us is; either it was BS or it was someone else after all.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Hello Wick,

Time to mutilate and an environment in which he felt safe enough to do so are two different things.

c.d.

If she was killed at 12:46 (the 30 min. option), then the killer had an extra 10 minutes and he had to begin the attack immediately Schwartz ran off, but BS-man was still there, so how long before he staggered off? This sounds too soon to me, the killer needs to wait for things to settle down.

If she was killed at 12:56 (the 20 min. option), then we might ask what Stride & this man were doing for the next 10 minutes? At least that would make more sense to me, he waited for BS-man to leave and be sure no-one else was in the street, and no-one coming from the club into the yard. Wait a few minutes for things to settle down.

I think the latter option sounds more practical, yet he was still interrupted by Deimschutz.

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,
...
When you push someone away you don't do it with a closed fist you used the palm of your hand.
...

Hi c.d.,

Sorry, missed that bit earlier. But if you strike out to push someone and hit them with the heel of your palms, that's still going to leave bruises if it's done violently, making it more than just a placing of the hands and a shove. He's throwing her around, which also suggests something a bit more than a simple "place and push" type thing. While BS's manhandling might not have appeared to have had murderous intensity, I don't think it can be viewed as a minor pushing either. It seems to have left bruises, so it was violent enough in intensity to do that, but not of sufficient ferocity to result in Stride screaming out for fear of her life. It's of a level of physicality that leads to scenarios of the sort I've suggested (but yes, I know, other scenarios are possible).

We don't know the specifics of things like how she fell, on her side, on her bottom, etc. But if she's holding the cachous during BS's assault, we know she didn't fall on them so open hand falling wouldn't work. But as one can fall in different ways, open hand falling isn't part of the evidence that we are beholden to be constrained by when comparing hypotheses to the evidence. And, not falling open handed is not particularly uncommon, so it's relying on anything highly improbable. At least not in my view.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Sigh, that last bit should read "And, not falling open handed is not particularly uncommon, so it's not relying on anything highly improbable. At least not in my view."

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

The timing of events that night is very muddled despite the fact that many people seem to just accept a certain version. There 3 witnesses at least, ( 2 club and 1 outsider), that stated they were by Louis and the body near 12:45, one witness who claims to have seen 2 men on the street and the victim in an altercation with one of them at 12:45, one that stated he was sent for help by himself at that time...there is Lave who says he was at the gate until around that time, at which time Eagle says he arrived back at the club, Liz is cut around 12:55-56, just as Goldstein walks by, and Louis says he arrives 4 minutes later, to quote "precisely".

Yet Fanny Mortimer, a neighbor who seems to be less than enchanted with the club on her street, is at her door to the street off and on from 12:30 until 12:50, at which time she stays at the door until 1am....the same time as Louis says he arrived. She saw a young couple during that time. Heard nothing while she was not at her door, and her sighting of Goldstein at around 12:55 verifies the portion of her story that concerns the last 10 minutes of the hour. She saw no cart coming or arriving at 1am. She heard no Lipski being shouted. She saw no-one smoking a pipe.

Can everyone be correct? Of course not. Even with a few minutes margin of error there are unexplainable contradictions. Unless of course you consider carefully the statements from the people who would lose money and jobs if there were any lingering suspicion on the club. One thought to be run and attended by anarchists by the Police.

[Abby Normal]

Hi c.d.,

I'm of a different opinion on that. We know Stride had two bruises under each collar bone from the medical reports, and these would suggest that the "pushing" involved strikes against her hard enough to leave those marks. BS actions account for those, but indicate this is more than just a pushing away of someone making an unwanted proposition. Also, if that is all BS was doing, the incident as described by Schwartz is more prolonged than called for if BS is simply getting rid of an unwanted advance.

Also, we don't know when Stride put the cachous in her hand to begin with. It seems to me, though, if she's holding them when BS starts his manhandling of her, she would grasp them. And as he appears willing to continue doing so once Schwartz and Pipeman are spotted, I see no reason to conclude he isn't willing to continue to do after they leave. Yes, I can see why that might not be the most rational decision, but neither is killing her (by BS or anyone else).

BS either then forces her into the alley, or she gets away and escapes into it, still holding the cachous, which there has been no opportunity to re-pocket. If she flees, he grabs her scarf, tightening it, and perhaps causing her to fall but she doesn't drop them. He then cuts her throat, an escalation she was not expecting (given the pushing and shoving, while violent enough to bruise her, has been argued to be not apparently murderous in intensity).

And if it's JtR, the attack went poorly as compared to his previous, there's too much activity in the streets (Schwartz, Pipeman), there's the sound of people in the club (unlike Hanbury Street, where all were still sleeping), so he leaves. Shortly thereafter, Deimshutz shows up.

Something like the above accounts for why she's holding them. Otherwise, BS leaves, another person comes along, she's comfortable enough after having been pushed around and thrown to the ground in this location to entertain this newcommer, who then must get her to the ground by some violent means by which again she does not drop the cachous. The same problem again exists. I don't see how, or why, replacing BS with someone else who assaults her while she's holding the cachous makes any real difference, particularly as this newcommer is supposed to assault her even more violently than BS.

Obviously, we see that differently, but that's the nature of having little evidence, we have to speculate on how events unfolded, and those speculations will either seem plausible or not to different people. I find the above to be plausible (not saying it's correct, just saying it's plausible), but that's an opinion, and those vary from person to person.

- Jeff

yes yes and yes!

also, we have to remember that shes seen by several witnesses over the course of some time with who I think is probably the same man-wearing a peaked cap-Marshall, Smith, and Schwartz's BS man. I think this is the ripper-peaked cap man is also seen by lawende and company later, and also the anon church street sighting of a man wearing a peaked cap. I would place my bets on this man being the same and the ripper.

hes trying to schmooz her-get her into a secluded spot. but shes not looking for a punter, probably just a fun night out and or keeping an eye out for a new boyfriend since she recently broke up with Kidney. Shes not going to a secluded spot. The ripper/BS man/peaked cap man finally loses his temper and kills her. and takes off to find a more willing victim.

[Observer]

Hello Wick,

Time to mutilate and an environment in which he felt safe enough to do so are two different things.

c.d.

The backyard of 29 Hanbury Street, in the ever brightening gloom was a safe environment?