For what reason do we include Stride?

[Batman]

What seems to be forgotten is that if BS didn't see Schwartz or pipeman for that matter until after he had thrown Liz to the ground, then why go on and kill her?

She can identify the man that assaulted her in the middle of a series of Ripper murders.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hi Darryl

Good points. But I do wonder whether there was partial strangulation in this case. The doctors make no mention of it, and there were no marks suggesting this on her neck.

Also, BS Man only seems to notice Schwartz (who was behind him when the assault begins) when Schwartz is crossing the road alongside him, and BS Man shouts Lipski.

Hi, Jon see post above over my thoughts regarding Bs man and seeing Schwartz after he assaulted Liz.
I thought the scarf pulled tight around her neck could suggest she was partially strangled also the clenching of her hand.

[Abby Normal]

What seems to be forgotten is that if BS didn't see Schwartz or pipeman for that matter until after he had thrown Liz to the ground, then why go on and kill her? Why not leave and find another victim? Which incidentally he did. He wasn't on any timescale. And what would he have been guilty of with Liz? A drunken altercation? Hardly an unlikely occurrence in Whitechapel. I am sorry but to my mind, it beggars belief that he would go on to kill her after he knows he has been seen assaulting Liz, regardless if he was Jack or not.

who knows why he would go on to kill her? perhaps anger was taking over, or since they were strangers and didn't know his name it didn't matter.

one things for sure he certainly didnt take any further time in trying to mutliate her.

[Darryl Kenyon]

What seems to be forgotten is that if BS didn't see Schwartz or pipeman for that matter until after he had thrown Liz to the ground, then why go on and kill her? Why not leave and find another victim? Which incidentally he did. He wasn't on any timescale. And what would he have been guilty of with Liz? A drunken altercation? Hardly an unlikely occurrence in Whitechapel. I am sorry but to my mind, it beggars belief that he would go on to kill her after he knows he has been seen assaulting Liz, regardless if he was Jack or not.

[Darryl Kenyon]

He grabbed their shoulders and pulls them forward slightly closing his grab so that his wrists are almost together and their clothes tight around their upper chest neck region. They automatically flinch back and then he uses their momentum to push them back and down with a huge slam, his fists smashing while pushing into their jaw causing the bruising. In a flash the blade is out cutting their neck before they can even realize they are lying prostrate. They can't scream. All goes dark.

They could then scream out when he first grabbed them by the shoulders[ no sound from Polly even though people were nearby ] Also if they went down with a huge slam I am sure that would have echoed round Mitre Square, plus in the case of Liz the Doctors thought she had been laid down.

[Sam Flynn]

Good thinking Batman !!

I've been waiting to use that line, Jon, and you've beaten me to it. Curses!

[Batman]

Good thinking Batman !!
I agree with the above.
Poor Liz may not have even seen the knife until it was too late.

It is clear from the evidence and lack of splatter down their front and by the way the blood pooled under them that they were all lying on their back before the slash was made, which was likely made immediately after they hit the ground.

Nichols' face was even described as possibly having been punched.

Nearly all of them had bruises on their faces which can't be explained by being pulled from the rear.

Schwartz description of the attack is pretty much how such an act would go down. The shoulder region of the body goes all the way to the front. He grabbed their shoulders and pulls them forward slightly closing his grab so that his wrists are almost together and their clothes tight around their upper chest neck region. They automatically flinch back and then he uses their momentum to push them back and down with a huge slam, his fists smashing while pushing into their jaw causing the bruising. In a flash the blade is out cutting their neck before they can even realize they are lying prostrate. They can't scream. All goes dark.

That in itself appears to be a JtR MO and why many of the attacks didn't alert people.

Nichols didn't alert people.
Chapman said 'no' and there was a bump on the fence. The person who heard it didn't even bother to look over the fence.
Stride gently yelled out a few times and Schwartz heard it but no one else appears to have heard it or investigated.
Eddowes was murdered next to a warehouse with the door recently opened and someone inside cleaning up who heard nothing.
Kellly's murder may have involved her shouting murder. However, JtR changed his MO for this one by throwing a sheet over her because she was already lying prostrate and he couldn't slam her down.

Schwartz saw the type of frontal blitz attack we expect JtR to do.

[Abby Normal]

I think when we assess Liz we have to look at Jack's other victims. When were they killed? Between dusk and dawn. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Where were they killed? in dark secluded places. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what area were they killed? In Whitechapel. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Who were the victims? Poor destitute women who were prostitutes. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what time frame were they killed? In the Autumn of 1888. Does this fit Liz? Yes. How were they killed? Partial strangulation and then a knife being drawn across the throat. Does this fit Liz? Yes.
I know none of the above makes Liz a given but weighing up the probabilities Jack must be considered the prime suspect for the murder.
One last point Jack never drew attention to himself before any of the other murders. If he was seen, and it is an if, it was just a fleeting glimpse. Does this sound like a man who attacked a victim just before killing her in front of two witnesses while drawing attention to himself by shouting out to at least one of the witnesses in front of a busy club [in the street] while a meeting was going on? and he would probably know this due to the singing etc

hi DK
It seems BS man didn't notice any one until the attack had already started.
one has to keep in mind also, that the ripper was human, and could have simply lost his temper, if stride was not going with him to a secluded area.

[Abby Normal]

Both Phillips and Blackwell confirmed that her throat was cut whilst she was lying where she was found, as Blackwell stated: [I]the blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up.




Of course, but it is worth noting that she was found about 5 feet from where she had been standing in the gateway. So only one good push, or a swing, would have placed her where the body is found. Which is pretty much what Schwartz witnessed.
The not very loud screams could be because her scarf was being pulled tight, or as you say, her throat had been cut.

so basically after the initial assault in the street it basically continues as he forces her into the yard forces her to the ground and cuts her throat?

I could go with that, absolutely.

[Jon Guy]

before she knew what had happened her windpipe was slashed followed by almost immediate loss of consciousness in the darkness. Another trait of JtR.

Good thinking Batman !!
I agree with the above.
Poor Liz may not have even seen the knife until it was too late.

[Jon Guy]

I think when we assess Liz we have to look at Jack's other victims. When were they killed? Between dusk and dawn. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Where were they killed? in dark secluded places. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what area were they killed? In Whitechapel. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Who were the victims? Poor destitute women who were prostitutes. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what time frame were they killed? In the Autumn of 1888. Does this fit Liz? Yes. How were they killed? Partial strangulation and then a knife being drawn across the throat. Does this fit Liz? Yes.
I know none of the above makes Liz a given but weighing up the probabilities Jack must be considered the prime suspect for the murder.
One last point Jack never drew attention to himself before any of the other murders. If he was seen, and it is an if, it was just a fleeting glimpse. Does this sound like a man who attacked a victim just before killing her in front of two witnesses while drawing attention to himself by shouting out to at least one of the witnesses in front of a busy club [in the street] while a meeting was going on? and he would probably know this due to the singing etc

Hi Darryl

Good points. But I do wonder whether there was partial strangulation in this case. The doctors make no mention of it, and there were no marks suggesting this on her neck.

Also, BS Man only seems to notice Schwartz (who was behind him when the assault begins) when Schwartz is crossing the road alongside him, and BS Man shouts Lipski.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I think when we assess Liz we have to look at Jack's other victims. When were they killed? Between dusk and dawn. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Where were they killed? in dark secluded places. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what area were they killed? In Whitechapel. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Who were the victims? Poor destitute women who were prostitutes. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what time frame were they killed? In the Autumn of 1888. Does this fit Liz? Yes. How were they killed? Partial strangulation and then a knife being drawn across the throat. Does this fit Liz? Yes.
I know none of the above makes Liz a given but weighing up the probabilities Jack must be considered the prime suspect for the murder.
One last point Jack never drew attention to himself before any of the other murders. If he was seen, and it is an if, it was just a fleeting glimpse. Does this sound like a man who attacked a victim just before killing her in front of two witnesses while drawing attention to himself by shouting out to at least one of the witnesses in front of a busy club [in the street] while a meeting was going on? and he would probably know this due to the singing etc

[Batman]

The fact her throat was cut while she was blitzed prostrate is JtR MO, through n through.

I don't know why people think holding onto the property in darkness while someone knocks you to the ground is hard to accept. People had their property swiped from hand aplenty I would think and that this would be the main reason why she thought she was attacked. For her sweets. So she clutched them and before she knew what had happened her windpipe was slashed followed by almost immediate loss of consciousness in the darkness. Another trait of JtR.

[Jon Guy]

perhaps. but she had blood on her hand-if her hand went instinctively to the wound it might have mitigated the flow. as perhaps would the tightened scarf.
Plus it was a wet rainy night-the water on the ground may have diluted any trace.
having had her throat cut already may have also led to the not screaming very loudly.

Both Phillips and Blackwell confirmed that her throat was cut whilst she was lying where she was found, as Blackwell stated: [I]the blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up.

can you please expound on your idea of how the scenario in your mind may have happened if she was killed in the yard by the same man who attacked her in the street?

Of course, but it is worth noting that she was found about 5 feet from where she had been standing in the gateway. So only one good push, or a swing, would have placed her where the body is found. Which is pretty much what Schwartz witnessed.
The not very loud screams could be because her scarf was being pulled tight, or as you say, her throat had been cut.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

If her throat was cut in the street there would have been a blood trail, and she would have blood down her front.

I strongly believe that Schwartz witnessed the assault leading to her murder.
The bruises on her right arm are what we would expect from someone swinging her about, the bruises over shoulders are consistent with being held down (just like Alice McKenzie).
The tightened scarf consistent with Stride screaming not very loudly

Hi Jon
perhaps. but she had blood on her hand-if her hand went instinctively to the wound it might have mitigated the flow. as perhaps would the tightened scarf.

Plus it was a wet rainy night-the water on the ground may have diluted any trace.


having had her throat cut already may have also led to the not screaming very loudly.


can you please expound on your idea of how the scenario in your mind may have happened if she was killed in the yard by the same man who attacked her in the street?