For what reason do we include Stride?

[Robert St Devil]

...
As a more general remark on the subject of the thread, my own opinion is that almost any one of the canonical and probable murders can be separated out from the others. The only two that have a "perfect" similarity were Nicholls and Chapman. We're not looking at a methodical serial killer who acted over a period of years and perfected a consistent modus operandi, but rather a sudden spree of unusual, and rapidly escalating, violence that appeared to terminate just as suddenly. It's not even that outlandish to think all the murders might have been the work of separate perpetrators, fuelled and obscured by the public hysteria over the previous murders. Unlikely, yeah, but still on the table. Why keep Stride in the picture? Because, at the very least, she's part of the phenomenon.

I find it a little outlandish, Natalie, just based on all the control factors that 5 separate killers would have to keep in common to pull off such outrageous crimes in a city known for an extremely low social murder rate. Reading the newspapers of the times, murders were usually some family member went on a bender and stabbed her sister or shot his father or assaulted his wife or &c. And they tended to be resolved fairly quickly by the force. But, to have 5 individuals suddenly commit a spree of social murders (ie. in the sense of murdering 'a stranger' or person not known to him or her) on unfortunate women belies a conspiracy.

As for control factors, most the crimes were committed cluelessly; other than a handprint on Polly's face, what are you truly left with? There's no bloody handprints in No. 13, no bloody footprints leading away from Mitre Square, no button torn from shabby genteel clothing in that backyard on Hanbury, &c. So, these 5 would have to share a particular criminal perfection amongst the lot. Then, I consider that 5 separate killers would mean 5 separate family, community or social groups that they returned to after committing the crime. Surely, not all 5 could have been equally meticulous that they went undetected by a wife, neighbor, cousin, minister, &c. And, 5 killers means 5 different personalities; meaning, one might have a big mouth and brag about his crime: another might be wrought with guilt that he confessed to a confidante: and so on and so on. And finally, Id like to believe that, if there had been 5 separate killers, the police would have at least been adept at catching 1 out of the lot.

I can accept that there can be shared social phenomena. Notre Dame burns, and all I've been hearing since then is attacks on churches. So, I can accept that, in 1888, reports of the The Ripper murders may have had an affect on the maniacs and lunatics "out there", but I wouldn't be willing to put 5 killers "on the table".

[Robert St Devil]

Daily News 1 Oct;

"For a distance of 18 or 20 feet from the street there is a dead wall on each side of the court, the effect of which is to enshroud the intervening space in absolute darkness after sunset. Further back some light is thrown into the court from the windows of a workmen's club, which occupies the whole length of the court on the right, and from a number of cottages, occupied mainly by tailors and cigarette makers, on the left. At the time when the murder was committed, however, the lights in all of the dwelling-houses in question had been extinguished, whilst each illumination as came from the club, being from the upper storey, would fall on the cottages opposite, and would only serve to intensify the gloom of the rest of the court"

Dead wall! Thank you, Joshua I was wracking my skull trying to recall the term, but didn't feel like reading the entirety of Casebook or BNA to locate it. Add the claim that the Ripper could have been lurking on the site and gone unseen by Diemschutz, and I interpret that it was visibility "near zero" right there by the wall.
I don't remember how wide the gates were, so I can't say how far up the yard she was - 6, 7, 8,... Only remember that she was beyond the width of the open gate, just as Michael pointed out.
For me, this environmental factor comes into play when I question whether or not "everything that happened to Catherine" was meant for Elizabeth.

*And, I saw the word "gloom" used elsewhere, by a journalist who was slumming the murder sites in the wake of the attacks. In Mitre Square. This scribe was able to stand in that shadowed corner where Catherine was murdered, going completely unnoticed and unseen by people walking through the square.

[Abby Normal]

Indeed but, in the case of Stride, the "interruption" would need to occur before he could inflict an extensive cut to the throat (and nothing else). That's possible, of course, but it would have been extremely unlucky - for the killer - if that's actually what happened.

ive often wondered that perhaps her less extensive throat cut was due to the fact that it happened to not go as planned by the ripper. perhaps what Schwartz saw when BS mans hands went up to her shoulder area, it was actually him cutting her throat and schwartz didn't quite catch it.

[Sam Flynn]

Kate did have the double cut

Dr Brown only describes a single cut - albeit a very deep one that extended down to the spine, leaving its mark on the intervertebral cartilage. The idea of a single, deep wound tallies with Foster's sketch of the body and the mortuary photograph taken before Eddowes' wounds were sutured up.

[Harry D]

Respectfully, I find it odd to think it more improbable that no such events would have occurred in the course of the killer's activities than that they would.

Like… this was a murderer operating (usually) in public spaces in a majour metropolitan area, in a time and place where sex workers, drunks, police constables, vagrants and early morning labourers would all be out in the street. What strikes me as unusual and 'deux ex machina' isn't that the killer's activities might be interrupted by Schwartz, Diemschutz or even a sudden loss of lighting, but rather that this DIDN'T happen more FREQUENTLY.

The killer was able to blend into the general tumult and chaos of Whitechapel, and to take advantage of it and its citizens desensitization to violence, conflict, screams, whatever, but he wasn't able to control or halt it. Unless we're talking about Tabram or Kelly, where he had privacy, sooner or later someone would stumble upon the scene.

As a more general remark on the subject of the thread, my own opinion is that almost any one of the canonical and probable murders can be separated out from the others. The only two that have a "perfect" similarity were Nicholls and Chapman. We're not looking at a methodical serial killer who acted over a period of years and perfected a consistent modus operandi, but rather a sudden spree of unusual, and rapidly escalating, violence that appeared to terminate just as suddenly. It's not even that outlandish to think all the murders might have been the work of separate perpetrators, fuelled and obscured by the public hysteria over the previous murders. Unlikely, yeah, but still on the table. Why keep Stride in the picture? Because, at the very least, she's part of the phenomenon.

Good post Natalie!

Welcome to CB!

[Joshua Rogan]

Daily News 1 Oct;

"For a distance of 18 or 20 feet from the street there is a dead wall on each side of the court, the effect of which is to enshroud the intervening space in absolute darkness after sunset. Further back some light is thrown into the court from the windows of a workmen's club, which occupies the whole length of the court on the right, and from a number of cottages, occupied mainly by tailors and cigarette makers, on the left. At the time when the murder was committed, however, the lights in all of the dwelling-houses in question had been extinguished, whilst each illumination as came from the club, being from the upper storey, would fall on the cottages opposite, and would only serve to intensify the gloom of the rest of the court"

[Michael W Richards]

If there was light in the yard when the killer and Stride entered,then it would have been possible for the couple to have been seen.Would the killer,under those circumstances begin an attack.?

Its my understanding that there was a little light from the upstairs window Harry, but if they were behind the open gate, likely very little. Her feet were only inches from that gate door, and Eagle says he "couldn't remember' if he had to step around or over a dying woman, so its possible she and her killer might have been behind the gate, and came out slightly when she was killed. I can see her being poked in the chest behind the gate while being threatened, she turns to leave, her scarf is grabbed, her throat is cut while he held the scarf, and then dropped. That scenario does have some evidence that would support it...bruising on chest, scarf evidence, position in death,...maybe someone warned her about something, she, being a tough street woman... had a smart aleck remark, and it cost her her life.

[Michael W Richards]

Personally, and I posted a comparison a few pages back, I think the throat cuts to Stride and Eddowes are extremely similar sounding to the point that they seem to point to the same person. However, it's limited (one injury for comparison), and given I'm not a medical expert, the similarities may be due to my lack of expertise not seeing significant differences, or the nature of killing someone by cutting their throat may tend to produce similar injuries quite commonly (making it less indicative of the same person being involved).


- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Well... Phillips, who saw 4 of the Five Canonicals first hand, saw dissimilarities with Eddowes and the previous victims, let alone with Stride. Kate did have the double cut, something which is unique enough to be considered as a signature or part of his MO, but Phillips still was unconvinced the cuts matched Polly and Annies.

[Sam Flynn]

All an interruption has to be is something that makes him decide to leave, so that could have been something that occurred prior to the first cut, which only would take a couple seconds, so he kills her and leaves.

Why not leave her alive, if all that had happened up till then was a bit of rough and tumble? Unless he knew that Stride would be able to identify him, of course, but even then it's possible that all she'd have against him was that he'd roughed her up.

[JeffHamm]

Indeed but, in the case of Stride, the "interruption" would need to occur before he could inflict an extensive cut to the throat (and nothing else). That's possible, of course, but it would have been extremely unlucky - for the killer - if that's actually what happened.

Not necessarily. All an interruption has to be is something that makes him decide to leave, so that could have been something that occurred prior to the first cut, which only would take a couple seconds, so he kills her and leaves. There's no reason why the interruption event has to occur between a first and second cut as far as I can see.

Personally, and I posted a comparison a few pages back, I think the throat cuts to Stride and Eddowes are extremely similar sounding to the point that they seem to point to the same person. However, it's limited (one injury for comparison), and given I'm not a medical expert, the similarities may be due to my lack of expertise not seeing significant differences, or the nature of killing someone by cutting their throat may tend to produce similar injuries quite commonly (making it less indicative of the same person being involved). But, if those similarities are sufficient to make the link probable (or at least increase the probability enough to warrant serious consideration), then it's more for completeness that we need to explain why JtR left Stride without moving on to mutilate.

Anyway, I'm on the fence with regards to Stride. I think considering her as separate from the series has a lot of good arguments, but I think there are also enough reasons to consider her as part of the series. I can't really decide which is more compelling.

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

interesting Sam
the event witnessed by Schwartz does have the ring of a domestic to it-the jilted lover killing his ex. Do we have any descriptions of kidney? does he match BS man in any way?

https://photos.casebook.org/displayimage722d.html?album=lastup&cat=11&pos=5

[Michael W Richards]

The Kidney idea has more possibilities than most here, a conventional motive like jealousy or anger is more probable in this case based on the evidence. You cannot leave out the mutilation details in Polly and Annies as reference materials, and you cannot reconcile those details with the Stride murder. Liz was killed. Polly and Annie were killed so their killer could cut into them. Kidney himself didnt have to be the one doing the deed though, he could have hired someone. I don't see any shortage of men willing to assault or worse in that neighbourhood, if there was any Pipeman or BSM they could have been sent there.

Though I believe Fanny Mortimer, and she said that from 12:30 until 1am she was her door on the street sporadically, and from 12:50 until 1am continuously. She saw only what Brown saw, a young couple, and then Goldstein in that 10 continuous minutes at the door. And her statement also verifies that she could hear footsteps while not at the door..so she would miss a shout of "Lipski"? If Liz was in the passageway just after PC Smith leaves, then I believe its most probable that her killer was someone at the club that night.

And if she was in that passageway sometime shortly after 12:35, then Schwartz, Eagle, Lave, and Diemshutz have some glaring environmental and chronological "errors" in their statements. And perhaps Spooner is owed an apology.

[Sam Flynn]

it is entirely possible he was "interrupted" every time he committed a murder out doors.

Indeed but, in the case of Stride, the "interruption" would need to occur before he could inflict an extensive cut to the throat (and nothing else). That's possible, of course, but it would have been extremely unlucky - for the killer - if that's actually what happened.

[Joshua Rogan]

The timings are close enough for that to have been the case, so it is entirely possible he was "interrupted" every time he committed a murder out doors.

Quite so Jeff. It seems evident to me that the murders all followed (or would have, given enough time) the same basic pattern: 1) cut throat* 2) open abdomen 3) remove intestines 4) remove other organs, working upwards 5) still not been disturbed? Go nuts!

Jack may have been disturbed at stage 1 with Stride, stage 2 with Nichols and stage 4 with Chapman and Eddowes.

Chapman's wounds may have indicated to Phillips that her killer was solely focused on removing the womb because that's as far as he'd got before being spooked.

It's tempting to think that, had all the victims been killed in private rooms, they would all have ended up in a similar state to Kelly. Or, just perhaps, if the first killing had been indoors there wouldn't have been any others (or at least, not so frequent) - perhaps, rather than his brain giving way after that awful glut, he'd simply fulfilled all his morbid fantasies and more.

[JeffHamm]

Respectfully, I find it odd to think it more improbable that no such events would have occurred in the course of the killer's activities than that they would.

Like… this was a murderer operating (usually) in public spaces in a majour metropolitan area, in a time and place where sex workers, drunks, police constables, vagrants and early morning labourers would all be out in the street. What strikes me as unusual and 'deux ex machina' isn't that the killer's activities might be interrupted by Schwartz, Diemschutz or even a sudden loss of lighting, but rather that this DIDN'T happen more FREQUENTLY.

The killer was able to blend into the general tumult and chaos of Whitechapel, and to take advantage of it and its citizens desensitization to violence, conflict, screams, whatever, but he wasn't able to control or halt it. Unless we're talking about Tabram or Kelly, where he had privacy, sooner or later someone would stumble upon the scene.

As a more general remark on the subject of the thread, my own opinion is that almost any one of the canonical and probable murders can be separated out from the others. The only two that have a "perfect" similarity were Nicholls and Chapman. We're not looking at a methodical serial killer who acted over a period of years and perfected a consistent modus operandi, but rather a sudden spree of unusual, and rapidly escalating, violence that appeared to terminate just as suddenly. It's not even that outlandish to think all the murders might have been the work of separate perpetrators, fuelled and obscured by the public hysteria over the previous murders. Unlikely, yeah, but still on the table. Why keep Stride in the picture? Because, at the very least, she's part of the phenomenon.

Well, it may have happened quite frequently. There is the distinct possibility that JtR left the scene of Nichols' murder as Cross/Lechmere came down Buck's Row, and for those who favor Cross/Lechmere as JtR, then Paul's arrival is exactly that situation. It seems he may have been overheard when killing Chapman as well. And, there's the possibility given the timing, that if Lawende and company saw Eddowes with her killer, which seems a reasonable probability, that he may even have been in Mitre Square when one of the PC patrolled Church Passage (I've fogotten his name at the moment), but as there was a lamp at the end of Church Passage, and JtR would have been in the dark, when the PC reached the end of Church Passage the light source would have hindered his vision into Mitre Square, but made him visible from Mitre Square. JtR could have left that scene either he approached. The timings are close enough for that to have been the case, so it is entirely possible he was "interrupted" every time he committed a murder out doors. There's no good evidence for that, other than the reports of something hitting the fence in Hanbury Street, but the times involved for all of the murders are such that he could have been just moments away from being caught in the act near every time.

- Jeff