A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[Rosella]

I suppose it would depend on just how enraged BS man was with Stride and his reasoning behind it. After all, people do kill others in spite of potential witnesses and considerable risks. (But I don't think he did kill her unless BS man is Jack!)

[c.d.]

I watched that Ripper documentary the other night and was particularly intrigued by the way they portrayed the encounter between Schwartz and the B.S. man. They were in quite close proximity to each other which makes sense. I never really thought about it before but if the B.S. man could make out Schwartz's apparently Jewish appearance so much so that he hurled the Lipski insult it stands to reason that Schwartz got a good look at him as well. Which begs the question why the B.S. man would then go on to kill Stride when at that point all he was guilty of was throwing a woman to the ground?

c.d.

[curious4]

Thanks Wickerman, makes toothache easier to bear. :-)

C4

[Wickerman]

Curious4 is right Tom.
The address Swanson used was his old address, which indicates they were still in the process of moving on that Sunday. At the time the incident occurred, the Schwartz's had not made the move.

There is no confusion over the way addresses are referenced in the UK, what we read is quite correct.
If you lived at the western end of Ellen St., it would be given as Ellen Street, Backchurch Lane.
However, if you lived at the eastern end of Ellen St., it would be given as Ellen Street, Christian Street.

In this case, where an address is more or less middle, and there was a major junction at the middle, being Berner St., then we get, Ellen Street, Berner Street.

ie; "It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane.When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved."

The Ellen St. address was more or less middle, right on the junction (intersection), with Berner st. This is how the press referenced the address.

Swanson uses the former reference, being that 22 Ellen St. was west of center on Ellen St.
" Israel Schwartz of 22 Ellen street, Backchurch Lane stated that at that hour.."

Neither are wrong, they both indicate the same location.

[curious4]

Did you seriously just write this after our long and protracted discussion about how he was living in Berner Street up until the night of the murder when he was moving to Ellen Street. His previous lodgings were in Berner Street, which is why I was suggesting it was at the club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom

I shall try to answer you in spite of a raging toothache. Nothing protracted until tooth's extracted.

Ellen Street began where Berner street ended and seemingly the Berner street route was the quickest from wherever he had been. (Which we don't have any information on - at least I don't). He states that he was going past his old lodgings and then on to new lodgings in Backchurch Lane. I don't see anything unclear in that. Incidentally, what we discussed was whether his lodgings were at the club or not. Admittedly his lodgings were in Ellen street but I gather could be referred to as being in Berner street.

Best wishes

C4

[Tom_Wescott]

We assume Ellen St. was his new address because this was the address given by Swanson in his report of 19th Oct.
Which conflicts with the address in Backchurch Lane given by the Star on 1st Oct.
Mind you, the Star only says they found him in Backchurch Lane, not that this was where he was living.
That maybe our assumption.

The Star may have unearthed him at a neighbours, or a friends house in Backchurch Lane.

I do understand that the address in Ellen St. could be referred to as in Berner St.

"and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane."
Star, 1st Oct.

Swanson's report could indicate the old address in Ellen St. because the move may not have been completed at the time of this incident.

I don't see any conflict since Ellen Street was a turning off Backchurch lane. I've found many references to the Berner Street club as the 'Commercial Road' club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello John

He didn't live in Ellen street any more - had moved out

Best wishes
C4

Did you seriously just write this after our long and protracted discussion about how he was living in Berner Street up until the night of the murder when he was moving to Ellen Street. His previous lodgings were in Berner Street, which is why I was suggesting it was at the club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

This account has always reminded me of BS-man & Pipeman in Berner Street.

Re: Death of Rose Mylett.
"Upon going up England row (nearly opposite Clarke's yard) I noticed two sailors. The shorter one was speaking to the deceased, and the tall one was walking up and down. So strange did it seem that I stopped and 'took account' of them. Then I heard the woman say several times "No! no! no!" and the short sailor spoke in a low tone. The tall one was about 5ft 11in. He looked like a Yankee. The shorter one was about 5ft 7in. It struck me that they were there for no purpose..."
Charles Ptolomey.
Evening News, 29 Dec.

Compare with Swanson's description of the Berner St. pair:

BS-man: age about 30, ht. 5ft 5in. Comp. Fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers, black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.

Second man age 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

[Wickerman]

Where had Schwartz been that day you mean?
We were never told.
Only that he walked down Berner St. from Commercial Rd.

[John G]

But where was he coming from to end up outside the club on Berner Street?

[Wickerman]

It reads to me like Schwartz came down through Berner St. to see if his wife had moved out of the house just two doors down on Ellen St.

Once he felt threatened, this address being too close, he takes off towards the railway arches, but in what direction we are left to speculate.

[John G]

Hello John

No, I took it to mean that he moved from Ellen street (Berner street) to Backchurch Lane. If it had been the other way round, he'd have no need to be on Berner street.

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4,

Well it would certainly undermine his evidence. However, I still don't understand what he was doing passing the club on Berner Street if his destination was Backchurch Lane. Moreover, why did he subsequently run off to the arches, rather than turning into Fairclough Street, clearly the most expedient route to Backchurch Lane? This is starting to make less and less sense.

[curious4]

Hello John

No, I took it to mean that he moved from Ellen street (Berner street) to Backchurch Lane. If it had been the other way round, he'd have no need to be on Berner street.

Best wishes
C4

[Wickerman]

We assume Ellen St. was his new address because this was the address given by Swanson in his report of 19th Oct.
Which conflicts with the address in Backchurch Lane given by the Star on 1st Oct.
Mind you, the Star only says they found him in Backchurch Lane, not that this was where he was living.
That maybe our assumption.

The Star may have unearthed him at a neighbours, or a friends house in Backchurch Lane.

I do understand that the address in Ellen St. could be referred to as in Berner St.

"and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane."
Star, 1st Oct.

Swanson's report could indicate the old address in Ellen St. because the move may not have been completed at the time of this incident.

[John G]

Hello John

He didn't live in Ellen street any more - had moved out

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4,

I thought Ellen Street was supposedly his new address?