A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[curious4]

Hello John

He didn't live in Ellen street any more - had moved out

Best wishes
C4

[John G]

There were certainly plenty of houses on Berner St. south of Fairclough St.

This pic shows the distances involved, and locations of Dutfields Yard (Green), to his address on Ellen St. (Blue), and the points where all railway arches crossed roads.

Hello Wickerman,

He certainly ran a substantial distance, as well as running past his own house, a possible place of refuge

[Wickerman]

I have read in connection with the Jeremy Brett "Sherlock Holmes" series that the deerstalker would have been a strange choice in the city, as they were more commonly worn in the country, on hunting parties.
This doesn't mean a man in Whitechapel could not have worn a deerstalker hat, of course, only that it might be unusual enough that the policeman would note it.

It is strange how "deerstalker" crept into the description, the press did not all agree on that point.
Descriptions vary from, "dark felt deerstalker", to "hard felt deerstalker", to "hard felt hat".

The official police description released on 1st Oct. made no mention of a deerstalker.

Aged about 28, and in height 5ft. 8in. or thereabouts; complexion dark, and wearing a black diagonal coat and hard felt hat, collar and tie. He was of respectable appearance, and was carrying a newspaper parcel.

It is possible this deerstalker is a red-herring.

[Wickerman]

... I just happen to think, on the evidence we have, more points to the Berner street lodgings than the club.

There were certainly plenty of houses on Berner St. south of Fairclough St.

This pic shows the distances involved, and locations of Dutfields Yard (Green), to his address on Ellen St. (Blue), and the points where all railway arches crossed roads.

[Pcdunn]

Weren't deerstalker hats the fashion at the time?

I have read in connection with the Jeremy Brett "Sherlock Holmes" series that the deerstalker would have been a strange choice in the city, as they were more commonly worn in the country, on hunting parties.
This doesn't mean a man in Whitechapel could not have worn a deerstalker hat, of course, only that it might be unusual enough that the policeman would note it.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Abby,

Well the journey of a thousand miles starts with one iota. Glad to see that you are keeping an open mind.

Sugden takes Swanson's statement to mean that he was acknowledging that the streets of Whitechapel were a rough place where heavy drinking was commonplace and that it was not unusual for a woman soliciting to get hassled a bit by customers or potential customers and that therefore the B.S. man could simply have fallen into that category and nothing more.

If you look at it objectively, the whole incident as related by Schwartz doesn't seem that significant in and of itself but only takes on a more sinister tone because Stride was killed shortly after.

c.d.

I agree here, and I'm not at all convinced BS Man killed Stride. However, I think we all must agree with Abigail McNormal that BS Man was and is the primary suspect in Stride's murder, whoever he was. Second to him would be Pipeman.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

They did acknowledge the possibility, Cd, but it was BS Man`s description the Police quickly released as a suspect.

Hello Jon,

That is certainly understandable in light of the fact that he was indeed a suspect and that no description for a possible second killer existed.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Ok. One iota more for second man.
But no more.

Hello Abby,

Well the journey of a thousand miles starts with one iota. Glad to see that you are keeping an open mind.

Sugden takes Swanson's statement to mean that he was acknowledging that the streets of Whitechapel were a rough place where heavy drinking was commonplace and that it was not unusual for a woman soliciting to get hassled a bit by customers or potential customers and that therefore the B.S. man could simply have fallen into that category and nothing more.

If you look at it objectively, the whole incident as related by Schwartz doesn't seem that significant in and of itself but only takes on a more sinister tone because Stride was killed shortly after.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom

Backchurch lane, not Ellen street, trust that was a typo. The "weak argument" I referred to was that Schwarz would have borrowed clothes to wear for an interview. Particularly as he was unaware presumably that the reporter was on the way. The reporter "tracked him down", probably by going to Backchurch Lane and asking where Schwartz lived.

C4

Yes, it said Backchurch Lane (which Ellen Street was off of). I didn't suggest he borrowed clothes for the interview, I suggested that IF he worked in the theater (which I'm not at all sold on) then he would have had access to those clothes and might have worn them as a matter of course.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious4]

Hello Tom

Backchurch lane, not Ellen street, trust that was a typo. The "weak argument" I referred to was that Schwarz would have borrowed clothes to wear for an interview. Particularly as he was unaware presumably that the reporter was on the way. The reporter "tracked him down", probably by going to Backchurch Lane and asking where Schwartz lived.

C4

[Tom_Wescott]

John G and Curious,

Abberline was certainly fallible, as were all police officers. I'm no more convinced by Schwartz than anyone else is. But in weighing the evidence we have to err on the side of accepting Schwartz's statement as legit. As for whether or not Schwartz resided at the Berner Street house, there's no statement to say he did, so it's all speculation. But to say it's a 'weak' argument speaks more to your personal bias than it does to the data which in fact supports it as highly possible (though by no means conclusive).

According to the information in the Star report, Schwartz was moving on the day of the double event from his lodgings in Berner Street to Ellen Street. He was walking through Berner Street to see if his wife was at his old lodgings. Given that he was a foreign Jew and that it was almost 1am, along with the Berner Street club's practice of offering temporary lodgings to people exactly like Schwartz, it's perfectly logical and not at all 'weak' to suggest his previous lodgings had been at the club. This doesn't make him a dishonest witness, but it does explain why the police were hesitant to accept his evidence as truth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious4]

Just stumbled across a dissertation by Christopher Scott on this site. He claims that according to police documents, Schwarz was living at 22 Ellen street, corner (?) of Berner street.

Further attempts to find him were only partly successful. I believe that Israel Schwarz was a very common name, people changing from Jewish sounding names to German names.

[John G]

The article said he was checking on his wife, not if anything was left outside.



He would not have had a key, and during meetings the front door was locked to non-members (which is what he would have been) and traffic went through the side door.



He didn't speak English.



They did and it would have and that might explain why they initially mistrusted his statement. It was also similar to a statement given by false witness Violina regarding Chapman which was quickly dismantled. But upon repeated questioning Schwartz convinced Abberline he was telling the truth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

I seem to recall that George Hutchinson also convinced Abberline he was telling the truth under repeated questioning.

[curious4]

Hello Tom

I am finding your arguments a tad weak now. Yiddish speakers were abundant, so why bother with a Hungarian translator? The truth, as I see it, is that there is no more evidence that Schwarz lived at the club than there is that he had lodgings in Berner street (apart from his own words). I just happen to think, on the evidence we have, more points to the Berner street lodgings than the club.

Agree to differ? ;-)

Best wishes
C4

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom

Schwarz was Hungarian, not Russian, and there is no evidence that he spoke Yiddish.

C4

I believe the Star reported mentioned he did. And I'm not sure his clothes can tell us how long he'd been 'off the boat'. Joseph Lave was temporarily staying at the club and he was from America and not broke either. I'm guessing Schwartz was of similar circumstances. If he was indeed in the theatrical line (and we don't know he was) he may not have owned the clothes he was wearing that day.

If Schwartz wasn't staying at 40 Berner Street, then please provide me with an alternate location that makes more sense, because I haven't found one.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott