A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[curious4]

Yiddish

Hello Tom

Schwarz was Hungarian, not Russian, and there is no evidence that he spoke Yiddish.

C4

[curious4]

In the theatrical line

Schwarz was described by the reporter who interviewed him as "smartly dressed" and looking like someone in the theatrical line, so he was hardly just off the boat.

C4

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Jon,

Thank you. But he wouldn't have needed to be on the same side of the street to see if there was anything left behind on the street, or any sign of his wife. I presume that he would have helped her carry things out before leaving.

Best wishes
C4

That's exactly right. They wouldn't have had much of anything and it really only makes sense that his wife would be at their old residence around 1am if their old residence was - oh I don't know - something like a club where other Yiddish speaking people their age might be hanging out and having a good time?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom

No, sorry, don't agree. He could just have walked past his lodgings to make sure there was nothing left outside, or his wife waiting there for help.

The article said he was checking on his wife, not if anything was left outside.

If he was living in the club, why not go there to get away from "the disturbance" - the nearest safe haven. If he was living there, he would have had a key or just banging on the door would get him in and away from the trouble outside.

He would not have had a key, and during meetings the front door was locked to non-members (which is what he would have been) and traffic went through the side door.

Why cross over. Why not say that he was living at the club?

He didn't speak English.

He must have known that the police would check his statement about the lodgings, if he was staying at the club it would have come out.

They did and it would have and that might explain why they initially mistrusted his statement. It was also similar to a statement given by false witness Violina regarding Chapman which was quickly dismantled. But upon repeated questioning Schwartz convinced Abberline he was telling the truth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious4]

"My ole man said foller the van..."

Hello Jon

Still a bit to carry for a lone lore woman. And they would have had clothes and some personal effects. I'd hazard a guess that they had been promised a lift on a cart and weren't quite sure of it. What argues against him knocking on the door to find out if she was there is that it was very late. I don't think his ex-neighbours would have been happy if he'd done that.

Best wishes
C4

[Jon Guy]

Thank you. But he wouldn't have needed to be on the same side of the street to see if there was anything left behind on the street, or any sign of his wife. I presume that he would have helped her carry things out before leaving.

Hi C4

Schwartz did say he`d been out all day, and back in those days the men probably did leave "moving house" to the wife. For their class, normally just a chair, table and mattress.

I`d say Schwartz lived on the southern part of Berner Street, and sensibly, he didn`t run to there, or to his new place in Ellen Street when he thought he was been followed by an anti-seminist thug.

[curious4]

I have to agree, C4.
Schwartz could have knocked on the front door of the club, if it wasn`t already open, without having to pass the quarrelling couple.
Swanson would have mentioned it in his summary.

But Tom makes good points that Schwartz wasn`t living between the club and the top of Commercial Street, or on east side of the street as he didn`t walk down that side of the street (it was mainly residential)

Hello Jon,

Thank you. But he wouldn't have needed to be on the same side of the street to see if there was anything left behind on the street, or any sign of his wife. I presume that he would have helped her carry things out before leaving.

Best wishes
C4

[Jon Guy]

But yet Swanson mentioned the possibility of a man other than the B.S. man being her killer so just how far fetched can the idea be if the police were willing to acknowledge the possibility?

They did acknowledge the possibility, Cd, but it was BS Man`s description the Police quickly released as a suspect.

[Jon Guy]

No, sorry, don't agree. He could just have walked past his lodgings to make sure there was nothing left outside, or his wife waiting there for help. If he was living in the club, why not go there to get away from "the disturbance" - the nearest safe haven. If he was living there, he would have had a key or just banging on the door would get him in and away from the trouble outside. Why cross over. Why not say that he was living at the club? He must have known that the police would check his statement about the lodgings, if he was staying at the club it would have come out.

I have to agree, C4.
Schwartz could have knocked on the front door of the club, if it wasn`t already open, without having to pass the quarrelling couple.
Swanson would have mentioned it in his summary.

But Tom makes good points that Schwartz wasn`t living between the club and the top of Commercial Street, or on east side of the street as he didn`t walk down that side of the street (it was mainly residential)

[Jon Guy]

This connection to the club might be why the police were hesitant to accept his evidence at first. '

Hi Tom

Swanson`s summary clearly shows that the police believed Schwartz from the outset.

[Jon Guy]

Followed up by a piece of anti-semitic graffiti to further throw off the police.

Maybe , Harry.
But it would mean Schwartz would have been pretending not been able to speak English.

[curious4]

He didn't check in on any residence between Commercial and 40 Berner Street, so that rules that part of the street out has having been their prior lodgings. We can rule out the entirety of the other side of the street because it was all businesses (and because he wasn't walking on that side). He slowed to a stop behind the couple at the gates of the club and only crossed because of their struggles. When he got to the other side of the street he stopped and turned around. He didn't head on to any other location on the street. Had his prior location (which he apparently still had access to, with a locking door) been on Berner Street ahead of him, I imagine he would have run to that. All of this plus other information points to Berner Street as having been his residence up until that very day. This connection to the club might be why the police were hesitant to accept his evidence at first. '

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom

No, sorry, don't agree. He could just have walked past his lodgings to make sure there was nothing left outside, or his wife waiting there for help. If he was living in the club, why not go there to get away from "the disturbance" - the nearest safe haven. If he was living there, he would have had a key or just banging on the door would get him in and away from the trouble outside. Why cross over. Why not say that he was living at the club? He must have known that the police would check his statement about the lodgings, if he was staying at the club it would have come out.

Best wishes
C4

[John G]

I quite agree with Tom's estimates.Two minutes at most from the time Bs stops at the gate,for him and Schwartz to clear, and Pipeman to move in.Difficult to introduce any other person.
Diemschutz arrives. Within one minute he has established a body in the yard,another minute seeing his wife,tw o minutes alerting the meeting and getting back to the body.Just look at a clock sometime,and count off four minutes.Plenty of time to do a lot of things.
One thing,I do not think Mrs Mortimer would have had her window open.Not at that time of day or time of year.

Hi Harry,

It was Mrs D in the kitchen, a few feet from were the body was discovered, who had the window open. In fact, I believe all the windows of the club were open. If we accept your 4 minute estimate then it would have taken only 3 minutes for the members to find PCs Lamb and Collins and for then to arrive at the Yard for 1:05- this is based upon Louis's estimate that it took around 7 minutes from discovery of the body to the police arriving.

If that is correct then it suggests the body was discovered at 12:58 and Mortimer went inside at 12:54, after being outside between approximately 12:44 and 12:54. And, during all the time she was outside she missed not one but two assaults.

Moreover, and here's another red flag, she didn't hear Stride scream three times. That is despite the fact that her hearing was acute enough to hear the tread of a policeman passing by and the arrival of Louis' pony and cart.

By the way, Schwartz says that Pipeman followed him, so he was moving away, not towards, Stride.

[harry]

I quite agree with Tom's estimates.Two minutes at most from the time Bs stops at the gate,for him and Schwartz to clear, and Pipeman to move in.Difficult to introduce any other person.
Diemschutz arrives. Within one minute he has established a body in the yard,another minute seeing his wife,tw o minutes alerting the meeting and getting back to the body.Just look at a clock sometime,and count off four minutes.Plenty of time to do a lot of things.
One thing,I do not think Mrs Mortimer would have had her window open.Not at that time of day or time of year.

[John G]

You're accepting too much too easily. The entire Schwartz episode took two minutes or less and Leon Goldstein passed through just before one, so if we take Mortimer's estimate of 10 minutes literally (which we probably shouldn't), then I'm bucking for 12:47 to 12:57. Maybe have been later. The 'measured beat of a policeman' may not have been Smith at all. It may have been BS Man or Schwartz or someone completely different.

Keep in mind she was next door to the club and they were singing, so this noise might have drown out certain sounds such as footfalls that were not 'measured' or from soles that were not hard. It also apparently drown out her hearing BS Man's cry of 'Lipski', assuming such a cry occurred.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Mortimer would have no doubt heard PC Smith pass her door several times a day. I think, therefore, she would be very familiar with the "measured tread" of a beat officer.

Turning to timings. Dr Blackwell arrived at 1:16. PC Lamb said he'd arrived 10-12 minutes earlier, timing his arrival at about 1:05. Now, Louis D estimated that Lamb arrived on the scene about 7 minutes after he discovered the body, suggesting a time of 12:58 for Louis D's arrival. However, your estimate seems to be around 1:01, based upon Mortimer going inside at 12:57.

How realistic is this? Consider the facts. Louis D enters Dutfield's Yard. After his pony shied he looks down on what he initially thinks is a bundle of rags. He then feels the bundle with his whip, before finally getting down to take a closer look. He then lights a match and realises that it's a woman's body. Then he goes into the club and finds his wife in the side room and has a brief conversation with her.

Following the conversation he goes upstairs where he finds Eagle and Kozebrodsky, and he reveals what he's just discovered. They then return downstairs with Louis and enter the passage. Eagle strikes a match and they see blood trickling down the gutter. It is only at this time that they run off for a policeman. Morris Eagle finds PCs Lamb and Collins and returns with them, Lamb arriving at about 1:05.

Now, as I noted, Louis estimated that all of this took around 7 minutes. However, in your scenario it would have taken only about 4 minutes, which I consider unrealistic. In fact, I think it could plausibly be as long as 10 minutes.

If we accept 7 minutes, then Louis arrived at about 12:58, Mortimer had gone inside at around 12:54 and was at her door from approximately 12:44 until 12:54. If we accept 10 minutes, then Mortimer must have been at her door from about 12:41 until 12:51, with Louis arriving at 12:55.

Should we accept your estimate of Mortimer going to the door at 12:47 this still creates problems. It would mean that, in the space of just 2 minutes, BS man would have to converse with Stride, attempt to pull her into the street, before throwing her to the ground. BS man would then have to see off Schwartz and Pipeman at which point he does what? Well, according to the newspaper account he returns to Stride and starts arguing again. In any event, BS man would then have to depart the scene, and a second man enter. The second man would presumably have to spend a short time speaking to Stride, before inducing her into the passage. As I said, I think 2 minutes is too short a time frame. At the very least the second man would have to arrive almost immediately, which I consider unlikely.

By the way, I'm glad you agree with me that Mortimer is such an important witness!