A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[John G]

This confuses me. The items you mentioned have no bearing on Schwartz and, as you say, have simple and plausible explanations. That being the case, I don't see what these 'red flags' are? But let's just say there are legitimate red flags about Schwartz (there are, as there are with most witnesses), what does that mean to you? What was Schwartz's motivation?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

I agree that motivation is an issue. However, it is likely that a number of witnesses did come forward with false information, such as Packer, possibly Hutchinson and, dare I say, Pearly Poll! ( In fact, until your own excellent research there was no substansive evidence undermining her account, and most authors accepted it.) Perhaps it was financial? It does seem, though, that he had a legitimate reason to be on Berner Street, and that is clearly in his favour. For that reason alone I wouldn't completely dismiss him as a witness, although it is possible that his own timings were inaccurate, just as Spooner's were. For instance, I think at at least possible that he witnessed the incident at a much earlier time. If that were the case, it may even have been a domestic incident, involving a different woman, and he wrongly identified Stride. After all, unlike PC Smith he failed to notice the flower.

If we accept his evidence, but assume someone else killed Stride, that also causes problems. I mean, having been assaulted by BS man is it likely that she would remain rooted to the spot until a second man comes along and assaults her? She certainly would have to be incredibly unlucky, I.e being attacked by two different men, in more or less exactly the same place, in unconnected incidents, in the space of just a few minutes. And, for a second time, neither Mrs D or other club members see or hear anything. And why was she waiting inside the club gates? Bearing in mind that there is very limited evidence that Dutfield's Yard was used for purposes of solicitation- the club certainly denied it.

I wonder if she was waiting for someone. I have speculated that it could have been a secret assignation with Lave- after all, he admitted walking as far as the gates. I'm not suggesting for one minute that he was the killer-I believe he even contacted the press himself- but could the club have conspired to invent the BS man story in order to prevent any suspicion falling upon Lave? However, I accept this seems unlikely.

Regarding PC Smith's timings. There is an excellent article on this site by Gavin Bromley, on which there is a very detailed assessment of PC Smith's beat. Gavin concludes that Smith probably saw Stride between 12:41 and 12:45. I freely acknowledge that my own conclusions, regarding timings, are based upon Gavin's excellent work.

[John G]

These specific times you keep mentioning don't really mean anything. In fact, it seems you're putting far more weight on these times than the witnesses or the police themselves did. Are you aware that Mortimer heard the 'measured footbeats' walk by her house minutes prior to going to her doorway?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

I think it depends on which publication you rely on. The Evening News I believe stated that it was shortly before quarter to one that she heard the policeman's stamp and then immediately went outside.

Nonetheless, I accept that none of the times can be entirely relied upon. However, I do feel that the evidence points to PC Smith's estimate being out by about 10 minutes

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

But yet Swanson mentioned the possibility of a man other than the B.S. man being her killer so just how far fetched can the idea be if the police were willing to acknowledge the possibility?

c.d.

Ok. One iota more for second man.
But no more.

[c.d.]

This confuses me. The items you mentioned have no bearing on Schwartz and, as you say, have simple and plausible explanations. That being the case, I don't see what these 'red flags' are? But let's just say there are legitimate red flags about Schwartz (there are, as there are with most witnesses), what does that mean to you? What was Schwartz's motivation?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Most of the red flags are associated with the B.S. man being her killer not with Schwartz himself. Schwartz never said that he saw the B.S man kill Stride, he only said that he saw the B.S. man throw Liz to the ground. That is what it seems is causing the confusion.

c.d.

[c.d.]

so lets see.
Instead of the man seen attacking Stride we have Pipeman, man lurking in shadows, Eagle, Kidney (?!?), pseudo club conspiracy--am I missing someone? Oh yes-Second Man.

The simple fact is that the prime suspect in her death, must be BS man. Im not saying its impossible that any of these other characters could have done it. Sure its not against the law of physics-but come on lets be reasonable here.

Hello Abby,

But yet Swanson mentioned the possibility of a man other than the B.S. man being her killer so just how far fetched can the idea be if the police were willing to acknowledge the possibility?

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

However, although I accept that there are explanations for the problems I've highlighted in Schwartz's evidence, for me there are too many red flags.

This confuses me. The items you mentioned have no bearing on Schwartz and, as you say, have simple and plausible explanations. That being the case, I don't see what these 'red flags' are? But let's just say there are legitimate red flags about Schwartz (there are, as there are with most witnesses), what does that mean to you? What was Schwartz's motivation?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

As for PC Smith's man, I believe the name of this individual appears in an article published a year or so ago (relatively recently) by our own Lynn Cates.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

Yes, it would be useful if Mortimer was outside at the time Schwartz said he witnessed the assault! However, although I accept that there are explanations for the problems I've highlighted in Schwartz's evidence, for me there are too many red flags. I also think that it makes more sense that PC Smith was on Berner Street at around 12:45, or just before. I believe that is suggested by Mortmer's evidence and by a possible 10 minute error in the time he estimated he returned to Berner Street and discovered the commotion in Dutfield's Yard. And, if that's correct, then Schwartz's evidence is further undermined.

Regarding Mortimer being outside between 12:47-12:57. That means Louis arrived at about 1:01, based upon Mortimer's statement that she heard the pony and cart about 4 minutes after she went inside. I consider this to be unlikely as PC Lamb arrived on the scene just 4 minutes later.

These specific times you keep mentioning don't really mean anything. In fact, it seems you're putting far more weight on these times than the witnesses or the police themselves did. Are you aware that Mortimer heard the 'measured footbeats' walk by her house minutes prior to going to her doorway?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

These aren't problems with Schwartz's evidence, since he made no statement relating to cachous or abrasions or the ability of anyone else to hear or see what he saw. What you listed were issues that you, personally, have been unable to make sense of. That hardly has any bearing on Schwartz. In fact, all the things you listed are perfectly explainable and do not contradict Schwartz.



What you mean is that you - personally - want her outside during that time so you can say Schwartz wasn't there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Yes, it would be useful if Mortimer was outside at the time Schwartz said he witnessed the assault! However, although I accept that there are explanations for the problems I've highlighted in Schwartz's evidence, for me there are too many red flags. I also think that it makes more sense that PC Smith was on Berner Street at around 12:45, or just before. I believe that is suggested by Mortmer's evidence and by a possible 10 minute error in the time he estimated he returned to Berner Street and discovered the commotion in Dutfield's Yard. And, if that's correct, then Schwartz's evidence is further undermined.

Regarding Mortimer being outside between 12:47-12:57. That means Louis arrived at about 1:01, based upon Mortimer's statement that she heard the pony and cart about 4 minutes after she went inside. I consider this to be unlikely as PC Lamb arrived on the scene just 4 minutes later.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

Yes, possibly. However, as I've noted before there are numerous problems with Schwartz's evidence: the cachous, lack of abrasions, nobody hearing the screams, nobody else witnessing the incident, Pipeman's failure to come forward, Schwartz eagerness to report the matter to the police, on stark contrast to Lawende et al etc.

These aren't problems with Schwartz's evidence, since he made no statement relating to cachous or abrasions or the ability of anyone else to hear or see what he saw. What you listed were issues that you, personally, have been unable to make sense of. That hardly has any bearing on Schwartz. In fact, all the things you listed are perfectly explainable and do not contradict Schwartz.

Louis D I believe stated that the first police officer arrived about 7 minutes after he discovered the body. That would be PC Lamb's arrival at about 1:05. That suggests Louis D discovered the body at about 12:58. Mortimer said she'd been inside for about 4 minutes when she heard the pony and cart. That means that it's feasible that she was outside between, say, 12:45 and 12:54.

What you mean is that you - personally - want her outside during that time so you can say Schwartz wasn't there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

You're accepting too much too easily. The entire Schwartz episode took two minutes or less and Leon Goldstein passed through just before one, so if we take Mortimer's estimate of 10 minutes literally (which we probably shouldn't), then I'm bucking for 12:47 to 12:57. Maybe have been later. The 'measured beat of a policeman' may not have been Smith at all. It may have been BS Man or Schwartz or someone completely different.

Keep in mind she was next door to the club and they were singing, so this noise might have drown out certain sounds such as footfalls that were not 'measured' or from soles that were not hard. It also apparently drown out her hearing BS Man's cry of 'Lipski', assuming such a cry occurred.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Yes, possibly. However, as I've noted before there are numerous problems with Schwartz's evidence: the cachous; lack of abrasions; nobody hearing the screams-including Mrs D, who was probably sat a few feet away, in the kitchen, with the window open; nobody else witnessing the incident; Pipeman's failure to come forward; Schwartz eagerness to report the matter to the police, in stark contrast to Lawende et al; and in stark contrast to his own failure that night to report the assault; major contradictions between the police report and the newspaper report; BS man trying to pull Stride into the street, I.e away from the Yard where the body was found; no damage to Stride's clothing.

Louis D, I believe, stated that the first police officer arrived about 7 minutes after he discovered the body. That would be PC Lamb's arrival at about 1:05. That suggests Louis D discovered the body at about 12:58. Mortimer said she'd been inside for about 4 minutes when she heard the pony and cart. That means that it's feasible that she was outside between, say, 12:45 and 12:54.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom,

No. If we accept the 10 minute estimate then it means she went outside around 12:45. If she heard the measured tread of a police officer just before that, as she claimed, then that means PC Smith passed around 12:45. If she was outside for more than 10 minutes then why didn't she see the following: Schwartz, Pipeman, BS man, Lave, Eagle, Letchford? And, if PC Smith did pass at 12:45 that seriously undermines Schwartz.

You're accepting too much too easily. The entire Schwartz episode took two minutes or less and Leon Goldstein passed through just before one, so if we take Mortimer's estimate of 10 minutes literally (which we probably shouldn't), then I'm bucking for 12:47 to 12:57. Maybe have been later. The 'measured beat of a policeman' may not have been Smith at all. It may have been BS Man or Schwartz or someone completely different.

Keep in mind she was next door to the club and they were singing, so this noise might have drown out certain sounds such as footfalls that were not 'measured' or from soles that were not hard. It also apparently drown out her hearing BS Man's cry of 'Lipski', assuming such a cry occurred.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

Hi John G. Is this more piss taking? Mortimer was at her doorway from just after the Schwartz incident would have happened until she saw Leon Goldstein pass through a few minutes before 1am. The streets were silent at this time, with fits with Schwartz. In fact, there's nothing about Fanny Mortimer's evidence that doesn't make sense and in fact she's probably the most reliable witness (when it comes to what she saw herself) because she's actually corroborated by Leon Goldstein. We just shouldn't put a lot of stock in the '10 minute' window since that's an estimate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

No. If we accept the 10 minute estimate then it means she went outside around 12:45. If she heard the measured tread of a police officer just before that, as she claimed, then that means PC Smith passed around 12:45. If she was outside for more than 10 minutes then why didn't she see the following: Schwartz, Pipeman, BS man, Lave, Eagle, Letchford? And, if PC Smith did pass at 12:45 that seriously undermines Schwartz.

As I've noted several times now, Smith's 12:30-12:35 estimate was probably based on his assumption that he arrived back on Berner Street at around 1:00am- he said his beat took around 25-30 minutes to complete. But this can't possibly be right. PC Lamb was already there when he arrived, and Lamb got to Dutfield's Yard around 1:05. Moreover, shortly after arriving Smith went for the ambulance, noticing Johnston's arrival just as he was leaving. And Johnston said he arrived about 2-3 minutes before Dr Blackwell, meaning he got there about 1:12-1:13. That suggests Smith arrived about 1:10 not 1:00 as he thought. And, if his timings were out by 10 minutes, then that places his sighting of newspaper parcel man and Stride between 12:40 and 12:45, not 12:30 and 12:35. It also means Mortimer's evidence makes a lot more sense I.e Mortimer and Smith's evidence are reconciled.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

Yes, a bit convoluted, but perhaps a bit of a stretch?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes, Post 160 certainly was. I think the simpler scenario I outlined in Post 195 is better. Take Schwartz out of the scenario and things make a lot more sense. In fact, if PC Smith did get his times mixed up, as I believe he probably did, then even Fanny Mortimer's evidence makes sense!

[Tom_Wescott]

Regarding PC Smith's timings. If, as I've suggested, he arrived on Berner Street around 12:45, rather than 12:30-12:35, then Mortimer's evidence clearly makes much more sense. Thus, she said she went to her doorstep after hearing the measured tread of a PC, presumably Smith. However, if we accept PC Smith's time estimate, she should have seen Charles Letchford, Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave, but she didn't see any of those people and they didn't see her.

Moreover, she said she remained outside for about 10 minutes, before hearing a pony and cart passing about 4 minutes later. However, based on the earlier time estimates, this means she was outside between 12:30-40 or 12:35-45, with Louis D arriving between 12:44 and 12:49, which doesn't make any sense.

However, if PC Smith saw Stride and the newspaper parcel suspect at around 12:45, then the killer could have waited until Smith had left Berner Street before inveigling Stride into Dutfield's Yard. We can then speculate that he was interrupted by Mortimer. If he was JtR, then he may well have flead after Mortimer went inside , deciding it was too risky to remain in the Yard, I.e to effect the mutilations, especially considering the presence of the club.

Hi John G. Is this more piss taking? Mortimer was at her doorway from just after the Schwartz incident would have happened until she saw Leon Goldstein pass through a few minutes before 1am. The streets were silent at this time, with fits with Schwartz. In fact, there's nothing about Fanny Mortimer's evidence that doesn't make sense and in fact she's probably the most reliable witness (when it comes to what she saw herself) because she's actually corroborated by Leon Goldstein. We just shouldn't put a lot of stock in the '10 minute' window since that's an estimate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott