A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[Natasha]

Yes, I suppose it's difficult to determine whether Mitre Square was quite as dark as Dutfield's Yard. Of course, there is a reasonable chance that Stride's killer was interrupted, I.e by Louis D or even Lave.

I think all the murders committed were in risky locations.
In the case of Chapman, he was in a position where he could have been caught. Surely the killer would have heard someone (Albert Cadosch) going into the other yard, and what is strange, is that he chose to kill her within earshot of him.

[John G]

But what about Eddowes? She was practically killed in pitch black darkness, and was killed within a small time frame, I'm aware of the approximation of the timing of body found etc, but you see what I mean.

Yes, I suppose it's difficult to determine whether Mitre Square was quite as dark as Dutfield's Yard. Of course, there is a reasonable chance that Stride's killer was interrupted, I.e by Louis D or even Lave.

[Natasha]

No need for Smith to lie we can certainly trust his testimony .

Well judging by the fact that Smith was present at the inquest and Schwartz wasn't, makes me think that something about Schwartz's statement isn't right. He wasn't even referred to at the inquest. The language barrier thing aint a good enough excuse, he could have brought an interpreter with him.

Wouldn't Schwartz's statement be of more interest, than Smith's (going by the time frame)? That is why I think there is more to Schwartz's reason to come forward.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha,

If Stride was a Ripper victim I think the lack of abdominal mutilation would have to be largely explained by the killer being interrupted. The lack of neck mutilation is obviously far more problematical. However, the passage was very narrow and Dutfield's Yard wasn't just poorly lit- visibility was virtually zero. In fact, it was so dark that when Lave tried to get back on the club he couldn't even see the door. Those factors could therefore have hampered the killer if JtR-style mutilation was his intention.

But what about Eddowes? She was practically killed in pitch black darkness, and was killed within a small time frame, I'm aware of the approximation of the timing of body found etc, but you see what I mean.

[Natasha]

Well wait a minute here. Could he have actually (gasp) believed that coming forward was the right thing to do morally but like most people was reluctant to do so. I am constantly amazed how everything that Schwartz said or did is seen in a negative light.

c.d.

Hang on a minute, am I missing something? Has this case been solved? Sorry CD, but just about everyone connected to this case needs scrutiny.

[John G]

Hi John,

In regards to the lighting, there wasn't much of it on the streets, so it stands to reason that the killer operated in very poorly lit areas. So I'm just going on that.

Hi Natasha,

If Stride was a Ripper victim I think the lack of abdominal mutilation would have to be largely explained by the killer being interrupted. The lack of neck mutilation is obviously far more problematical. However, the passage was very narrow and Dutfield's Yard wasn't just poorly lit- visibility was virtually zero. In fact, it was so dark that when Lave tried to get back on the club he couldn't even see the door. Those factors could therefore have hampered the killer if JtR-style mutilation was his intention.

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha,

Having read the views of Dr Biggs, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, I am of the opinion that extreme caution needs to be exercised when considering the conclusions of the Victorian GPs.

Hi John,

In regards to the lighting, there wasn't much of it on the streets, so it stands to reason that the killer operated in very poorly lit areas. So I'm just going on that.

[pinkmoon]

Seeing as Berner Street was a jewish neighbourhood, I would like to know what the reactions of the jews would be if they heard someone shouting out an antisemitic slur. Would that not attract more attention, if the killer shouted out "Lipski"?

I too think PC Smith's statement has been overlooked.

No need for Smith to lie we can certainly trust his testimony .

[Natasha]

Seeing as Berner Street was a jewish neighbourhood, I would like to know what the reactions of the jews would be if they heard someone shouting out an antisemitic slur. Would that not attract more attention, if the killer shouted out "Lipski"?

I too think PC Smith's statement has been overlooked.

[John G]

Hello Lynn,

Possibly. And I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of Schwartz being motivated by financial gain. However, if he was acting to protect the club, why say that Stride was stood inside the gates? I mean, the obvious implication is that she was either soliciting or waiting for a club member although, of course, I accept they're not the only possible explanations.

Nonetheless, his evidence does seem to draw attention toward the club, rather than away from it. Even the evidence regarding the shout of Lipski is somewhat ambiguous. As you say, they couldn't avoid the problem of the body being found on club premises, without taking the enormous risk of attempting to move the body but, as I've noted, Schwartz could have said that Stride was stood elsewhere on Berner Street when first encountering BS man. He might even have said that the altercation originally took place away from the club, but that Stride then ran to the club gates as she attempted to get away from the man, possibly with the intention of seeking refuge. At the very least he could have said that Stride was initially stood on the footpath, rather than inside the club gates.

Of course, there is always the possibility that he was originally instructed to say that the altercation happened away from the club, but that he got confused, or there was a problem with the translation.

[lynn cates]

futile

Hello John. But, given that her body was found there, would that not have been futile?

Better: right, her body was found here. But this lad Schwartz saw what happened and it wasn't one of us. just a drunken Gentile bully. So i suppose you'll have no further questions?

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

The biggest difficulty I have with the club conspiracy theory is that Schwartz doesn't really draw attention away from the club, i.e. by stating that Stride was stood in the club gateway. If that were his intention, wouldn't it be more likely that he would have suggested that the assault originated elsewhere on Berner Street, i.e well away from the club premisis? Or, at the very least, that Stride first encountered her assailant away from the club. Of course, we have the shout of Lipski, but surely even that's ambiguous as far as the club is concerned. I mean, surely not all the club members were Jewish?

[lynn cates]

consistent

Hello Harry.

"Let's say that the man PC Smith saw with Stride was one of the club members."

Not bad. Of course, Tom Wescott is the author.

"Not saying this guy was her murderer, but if the club knew he was the last man seen with the victim shortly before her death this would cast suspicion on the socialists. Therefore they enlist Schwartz to come up with another suspect - a racist brute tussling with Stride in the street who definitely wasn't a Jew, because the only word out of his mouth was an anti-semitic expletive."

Very consistent. I like it.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

So people might well be tempted to lie to try and attract the press to their front door.

Absolutely they might, this is why reporters are expected to investigate the story before they print it. Often the Editor will ask the reporter if his story has been confirmed before it goes to press.
The irony is, the press are known to mislead the public, but they take issue if the public mislead them.

[pinkmoon]

So people might well be tempted to lie to try and attract the press to their front door.