A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree DJA. I was initially attracted to Tom's suggestion that BS man was Eagle but, after further consideration, I think it an unlikely proposition. As a local man there must be a very good chance that Schwartz would have recognized Eagle; and even if he didn't, he would surely have encountered him at a later date and reported the sighting to the police.

That means we have to assume a conspiracy between Eagle and Schwartz. However, not only would that have been risky surely, in this scenario, Eagle would have persuaded Schwartz not to come forward at all. There would have been no reason to "invent" BS man as a suspect, and no reason to take the risk of Schwartz being caught out during a police interrogation.

I don't personally believe that Eagle was BS Man. I only put it out there because it is a possibility supported by the known facts. There are many other possibilities, including the possibility that BS man never existed. I personally think he did though. But all of this merely illustrates the quagmire that is the Schwartz story. Whether or not you believe it's true, it still provides little in the way of answers, because true or not, BS Man may not have been Stride's killer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello John.

"I've been reflecting further on Tom's scenario and I wonder if Eagle could have been BS man."

Yes, indeed. I think my biggest hesitation comes from his being as far away as Commercial.

Cheers.
LC

Eagle had walked his girlfriend home and was returning to the club, so it makes sense he'd be turning on to Berner Street from Commercial.

Lave went only as far as the street, but he re-entered the club PRIOR to Eagle. If BS man was anyone in the club, then it would most likely be Eagle.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

I have no doubt that Kidney was cleared but we have no record of that, correct?

A police report. His moustache rules him out as BS man as well. He was the only one pushing the police for justice after Stride's death so I consider it a shame so many modern authors give poorly researched (and sometimes fictitious) write-ups on Kidney in order to be 'controversial'. He was no angel, but he didn't murder Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello C4,

Isn't the case that several of the murder locations were close by to railway stations?

Perhaps the killer was a train spotter !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[pinkmoon]

I'm quite interested in his parcel.

[Wickerman]

In this scenario, I think PC Smith's suspect becomes the most likely killer, if only because of his failure to come forward.

A couple of scenario's could make him the killer. It's about time he received his fair share of the limelight.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha,

Yes, I agree, although I do think the killer(s) took basic precautions . For instance, Mitre Square and Berner Street were both very dark. Nichols was probably killed at a time when there was little light and when very few people were about. Strangely enough, I think Hanbury Street was probably the riskiest, as the murder was probably committed in daylight at a time when many locals were preparing to leave for work.

However, if the killer was able to work quickly he probably felt they were calculated risks worth taking. Of course, today he would be regarded as a disorganized killer. However 1888 was different. The killer would be highly unlikely to have a vehicle he could use for abduction purposes and any accommodation he had would probably be multi-occupancy and overcrowded. His options, therefore, would be much more limited than a modern serial killer, although clearly there were more organized killers of this period: The Torso Killer used dump sites and he must have had a secure location where he took his victims.

Hi John,

I agree about Chapman.

I get where you are coming from with the classification of serial killers in regards to the advances of today, but I'm thinking now that the murders lean more towards a disorganised killer. An organised killer goes further afield to commit murders putting as much distance between him and the crime.
The facial mutilations appear consistent with a disorganised killer. Also the disorganised killer kills quickly, on the spot and makes no attempts to move the body from that spot, even leaving evidence behind, is careless not precise in terms of planning. They even kill practically on their doorsteps. Organised killers go further afield. This killer appears to have a good knowledge of the area, and as I said before he exercises more disorganised traits than organised.

[curious4]

Hello C4,

Isn't the case that several of the murder locations were close by to railway stations?

Hello John

Whitechapel and Aldgate were pretty handy I believe. And the police did search the railway embankments.

Best wishes
C4

[Abby Normal]

I'm not convinced that BS Man wasn't Morris Eagle rudely removing a prostitute from the gateway of his club. I say this based on a few factors:

1) BS Man was removing Stride from the gateway, towards the street, and then pushed her. These actions scream 'go away' and certainly not 'come with me'.

2) Morris Eagle was the last person to arrive at the club and he entered through the kitchen, which means he went through the gateway. His arrival at the club was within 5 minutes of the time Schwartz estimates seeing BS Man.

3) Eagle denied seeing Stride, which means either he was lying or she moved into position in between the few minutes when he walked along the passage and when Schwartz came along.

4) He was described as reacting when he saw who the murdered woman in the passageway was and gave as his explanation that he doesn't like the sight of blood.

None of this is conclusive at all. BS Man and Eagle might be totally different people, or they may be one and the same. But I don't for a second think Eagle murdered Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

would Eagle yell an anti semetic slur at a fellow jew though?

[John G]

I do think that PC Smith's suspect was Stride's killer or at least worthy of a good look.

If, however, it was Stride that was standing by the gate and she and Eagle got into an altercation that was seen by Schwartz, then surely Eagle would have later told the police?

Wouldn't he say that he suspected that she was a loose woman and as a member of a respectable working men's club he didn't want such characters hanging around?

He'd get brownie points surely, if he said that and that she had 'thrown herself down' when he had tried to move her on. It wasn't as if he was a client or doing anything wrong such as beating her up.

Hello Rosella,

Yes, I think it's important not to get too carried away with the idea of a club conspiracy. After all, both Eagle and Lave admitted their absence, and return, to the club. Moreover, Eagle also admitted entering the yard, because he couldn't gain access by the front door, and Lave admitted walking as far as the street. Both of those details could have been omitted if they were involved in a major cover up.

However, I believed Tom made the point that Eagle recoiled in horror upon first seeing the body, claiming it was due to the sight of blood. But could it have been because he recognized the victim as someone he'd had a recent altercation with?

Of course, when the police arrived he may have panicked, and omitted to mention the altercation. This would be even more likely if he distrusted the police. Subsequently, he could have regretted not mentioning such an important detail, but by then any change to his evidence is going to look suspicious and suggest that he may have had something to hide.

I do believe that Eagle also stated that if a body had have been present he wouldn't have noticed it, on account of the poor lighting conditions. This strengthens my belief that Lave, or even Eagle, rather than Louis D, may have disturbed the killer: and Eagle's return to the club was at about the same time as PC Smith's sighting. Of course, if that were the case then Schwartz's evidence is seriously undermined. And, in that regard, Stride's lack of injuries, apart from the fatal wound, and the cachous problem. could be significant.

[Rosella]

Hello Lynn,

If the parcel was a collection of newspapers for distribution, wouldn't that imply that the suspect had either just left, or just arrived, at the club? If so, this would surely have been noted by club members and, in those circumstances, I feel the man would of have had no option but to come forward, as Eagle and Lave obviously did.

According to PC Smith the suspect, and Stride, were stood close to the club but on the opposite side of the street. It is therefore possible that the suspect had a parcel to deliver, but not at the club, and that Stride waited at the entrance for him to return.

If what Schwartz observed was Eagle trying to move Stride on, that might help explain the altercation. For instance, if he accused her of soliciting this could, in the circumstances, have caused her to become indignant. Moreover, she may have been reluctant to move if she'd agreed to wait for someone by the gates.

In this scenario, I think PC Smith's suspect becomes the most likely killer, if only because of his failure to come forward.

I do think that PC Smith's suspect was Stride's killer or at least worthy of a good look.

If, however, it was Stride that was standing by the gate and she and Eagle got into an altercation that was seen by Schwartz, then surely Eagle would have later told the police?

Wouldn't he say that he suspected that she was a loose woman and as a member of a respectable working men's club he didn't want such characters hanging around?

He'd get brownie points surely, if he said that and that she had 'thrown herself down' when he had tried to move her on. It wasn't as if he was a client or doing anything wrong such as beating her up.

[John G]

Hello John

He had access to the underground railway. And there was reputed to be a special sideline tunnel between the London Hospital and Whitechapel, transporting bodies. Struck me that anyone with blood on them would not look out of place. Haven't been able to verify this though.

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4,

Isn't the case that several of the murder locations were close by to railway stations?

[pinkmoon]

Hello Jason. Could the Leman story provide an answer?

Cheers.
LC

Leman?refresh my memory please.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

"Even Pipeman seems like a weak candidate. And, of course, Schwartz refers to him moving away from the incident, to the extent that he believed the man was following him. It's possible that he was just making sure that Schwartz wasn't going for help, but that seems a bit of stretch."

Only a bit? (heh-heh)

Regarding parcel man, Tom's hypothesis is that he was a club member and the parcel was a roll of "Arbeter Fraints" ready for distribution. (In fact, Tom measured his copy of AF and its length was congruous.)

Now here is an interesting question: Why was Liz on the east side of Berner?

1. Was she originally on the west side near the club and follow or go across to meet Parcel Man?

or

2. Did she arrive from a location to the east?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

If the parcel was a collection of newspapers for distribution, wouldn't that imply that the suspect had either just left, or just arrived, at the club? If so, this would surely have been noted by club members and, in those circumstances, I feel the man would have had no option but to come forward, as Eagle and Lave obviously did.

According to PC Smith the suspect, and Stride, were stood close to the club but on the opposite side of the street. It is therefore possible that the suspect had a parcel to deliver, but not at the club, and that Stride waited at the entrance for him to return.

If what Schwartz observed was Eagle trying to move Stride on, that might help explain the altercation. For instance, if he accused her of soliciting this could, in the circumstances, have caused her to become indignant. Moreover, she may have been reluctant to move if she'd agreed to wait for someone by the gates.

In this scenario, I think PC Smith's suspect becomes the most likely killer, if only because of his failure to come forward.

[curious4]

Hi Rosella,

I think what links those locations is that they were reasonably secluded, i.e because of the poor light. What intrigues me is determining whether JtR was a organized or disorganized serial killer. Today I'm sure he'd be regarded as disorganized. However, as I've noted in other posts, as a nineteenth century serial killer his options would be much more limited. For instance, he's probably unlikely to have had access to transport and any accommodation he had was probably multi occupancy and therefore very risky. Of course, the same was true of his victims.

Hello John

He had access to the underground railway. And there was reputed to be a special sideline tunnel between the London Hospital and Whitechapel, transporting bodies. Struck me that anyone with blood on them would not look out of place. Haven't been able to verify this though.

Best wishes
C4