The Cachous

[John G]

We don't even know if JtR was there. With Stride and MJK we know he was. Anyway the point is that you need a conspiracy theory involving Schwartz and his wife and moving house to make it work. Otherwise you have to accept he was there near the Stride was murdered.

As I noted earlier, even if he was telling the truth he may have witnessed a domestic squabble, involving a different couple, at an earlier time. The fact that he had a reason to be there is incidental: Packer had a reason to be selling grapes at the time he claimed to have sold grapes to a suspect and Liz Stride, but it doesn't mean he was telling the truth.

I mean, Mortimer, Goldstein, Eagle, Lave, could all have claimed that they witnessed an altercation, simply on the basis that they had a good reason to be in the locality, around the time Stride may have been killed.

[Batman]

Hello Batman.

"Really so the witness accounts above couldn't be trusted because they deviated?"

Actually, this should be singular, not plural. That's another false assumption.

Cheers.
LC

I say you didn't even read what I wrote there.

Speaking of plural witnesses. You reject Paul Begg's findings on the multiple witnesses to Stride's account, right?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8520 <--Pipeman found and cleared.

'Others' is a plural term.

[Batman]

You're assuming Schwartz was telling the truth. Even if he was he may have been seriously mistaken about what he saw. I mean, what if it wasn't Stride being attacked? He could have witnessed a common domestic dispute between, say, the couple seen by Fanny Mortimer.

In fact, even his timings could have been completely wrong. Thus, Fanny Mortimer seemed to be confused as to the time, believing that she'd been outside for nearly the whole period between 12:30 and 1:00am, and yet she missed several incidents. Spooner said he got to Dutfield's Yard about 12:35, but it must have been around half an hour later. So, Schwartz could have witnessed a domestic dispute, involving a different couple (I don't think he mentions the woman wearing a flower) at, say, around 12:15.

Nope. He identified the body in the morgue as that of the woman he had seen remember.

Spooner's timing is wrong. There is a whole dissertation on that on CB.

[Batman]

Well, Mathew Packer had a perfectly good reason to be selling grapes, but it doesn't mean he sold any to JtR!

We don't even know if JtR was there. With Stride and MJK we know he was. Anyway the point is that you need a conspiracy theory involving Schwartz and his wife and moving house to make it work. Otherwise you have to accept he was there near the Stride was murdered.

[lynn cates]

exposing the non sequitur

Hello John.

"Well, Mathew Packer had a perfectly good reason to be selling grapes, but it doesn't mean he sold any to JtR!"

Ah! So at least someone has had a logic class. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

deflection

Hello (again) Batman.

"It was a terrible plot then because the use of Lipski confounded everyone for weeks until they concluded it was an insult directed at Schwartz."

Agreed. I think it was hastily concocted by no more than 2 or 3 club members.

"Also did it deflect? They did house searches in the Jewish parts too following the double event."

From the club? Probably. But NOT the Jewish community. Nor was such intended.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

1

Hello Batman.

"Really so the witness accounts above couldn't be trusted because they deviated?"

Actually, this should be singular, not plural. That's another false assumption.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Tom

Hello Harry. Thanks for the kind words.

Actually, Tom Wescott first proposed the theory.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello John.

"But this means that Schwartz's account has no evidential value at all."

Bingo. Do you play professionally? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Tales R Us

Hello Batman.

"Also there seems to be a misconception that what Schwartz recounted was exactly what happened. Yet there is simply no evidence that there needs to be a 1:1 correlation for this to be true."

Schwartz misspoke? Very well. I'm good with that.

I agree that witnesses can give different tales. Problem is, NO one else told this tale.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

He failed too because coincidentally he was disturbed also.

Coincidentally she is attacked twice and coincidentally her attackers are both disturbed.

The multiple assault hypothesis is in the realm of such low probability with the chance of it happening with a double disturbance as to make it extremely unlikely.

Add in a coincidental JtR attack for those who think Stride not a ripper victim and coincidental GSG after the Lipski incident and you have ideas based on multiple coincidences that are needed to make them work. Looking at this logically entails eventually rejecting it.

You're assuming Schwartz was telling the truth. Even if he was he may have been seriously mistaken about what he saw. I mean, what if it wasn't Stride being attacked? He could have witnessed a common domestic dispute between, say, the couple seen by Fanny Mortimer.

In fact, even his timings could have been completely wrong. Thus, Fanny Mortimer seemed to be confused as to the time, believing that she'd been outside for nearly the whole period between 12:30 and 1:00am, and yet she missed several incidents. Spooner said he got to Dutfield's Yard about 12:35, but it must have been around half an hour later. So, Schwartz could have witnessed a domestic dispute, involving a different couple (I don't think he mentions the woman wearing a flower) at, say, around 12:15.

[Batman]

Well, Mr Not-So-Quite-As-Stupid As BS man decided that the pitch black darkness of Dutfield's Yard would be a preferable location. Oh, and he also decided that it was a good idea to make sure no witnesses were observing the proceedings, and to ensure that Stride was taken by surprise and given no opportunity to cry out.

He failed too because coincidentally he was disturbed also.

Coincidentally she is attacked twice and coincidentally her attackers are both disturbed.

The multiple assault hypothesis is in the realm of such low probability with the chance of it happening with a double disturbance as to make it extremely unlikely.

Add in a coincidental JtR attack for those who think Stride not a ripper victim and coincidental GSG after the Lipski incident and you have ideas based on multiple coincidences that are needed to make them work. Looking at this logically entails eventually rejecting it.

[John G]

He is a different Category. Schwartz has good reason to be going home past where someone was murdered. This is different from a witness who has no good reason for being there.

Well, Mathew Packer had a perfectly good reason to be selling grapes, but it doesn't mean he sold any to JtR!

[John G]

... But NinjaMan can because....

Special powers?

Well, Mr Not-So-Quite-As-Stupid As BS man decided that the pitch black darkness of Dutfield's Yard would be a preferable location. Oh, and he also decided that it was a good idea to make sure no witnesses were observing the proceedings, and to ensure that Stride was taken by surprise and given no opportunity to cry out.

[Batman]

Oh great, so looks as though George Hutchinson was telling the truth after all!

He is a different Category. Schwartz has good reason to be going home past where someone was murdered. This is different from a witness who has no good reason for being there.