The Cachous

[Harry D]

As I said before my post was lost in the server switcheroo, I think we have good reason to question Schwartz's reliability. None of the evidence or eyewitnesses corroborate his version of events. Furthermore, I find it awfully convenient that the only word BS Man utters to him is a perceived antisemitic insult, which would distance the suspect from the social club and work into Lynn's theory that Schwartz fabricated the whole thing to deflect suspicion away from the IWMEC.

[Batman]

Really so the witness accounts above couldn't be trusted because they deviated? That's another false assumption.

[Batman]

can't have it booth ways

Its a false claim to say that because a witness statement can deviate from another's that one or both are lying. This is because they can agree on other elements that are trur. So it is quite normal to assume that people who are telling the truth can have the freedom of not being perfectly accurate hence your quantum level comparison is erroneous. It can apply across the board and rule everyone a liar if used this way. Hence the eating slices of ones own cake problem.

[Batman]

As I said before my post was lost in the server switcheroo, I think we have good reason to question Schwartz's reliability. None of the evidence or eyewitnesses corroborate his version of events. Furthermore, I find it awfully convenient that the only word BS Man utters to him is a perceived antisemitic insult, which would distance the suspect from the social club and work into Lynn's theory that Schwartz fabricated the whole thing to deflect suspicion away from the IWMEC.

It was a terrible plot then because the use of Lipski confounded everyone for weeks until they concluded it was an insult directed at Schwartz.

Also did it deflect? They did house searches in the Jewish parts too following the double event.

The problem with a conspiracy is everyone keeping their mouths shut. Which rarely happens. It just sounds like a terrible plan plus how do you explain the whole moving house and wife thing. To fake all that and murder requires some planning... Including getting JtR to hit in Mitre Square in under an hour later!!

Not to mention the GSG coincidence...

Sorry too much for me to swallow. I'll stick with the more traditional meals.

[John G]

Really so the witness accounts above couldn't be trusted because they deviated? That's another false assumption.

Oh great, so looks as though George Hutchinson was telling the truth after all!

[Harry D]

It was a terrible plot then because the use of Lipski confounded everyone for weeks until they concluded it was an insult directed at Schwartz.

Also did it deflect? They did house searches in the Jewish parts too following the double event.

The problem with a conspiracy is everyone keeping their mouths shut. Which rarely happens. It just sounds like a terrible plan plus how do you explain the whole moving house and wife thing. To fake all that and murder requires some planning... Including getting JtR to hit in Mitre Square in under an hour later!!

Not to mention the GSG coincidence...

Sorry too much for me to swallow. I'll stick with the more traditional meals.

You misunderstand. I still think Stride was a Ripper victim, but I doubt that BS Man ever existed.

[John G]

If Stride was killed by Marshall's suspect, and the man seen by PC Smith, that means the killer must have been in Stride's company for over an hour. During this time he had clearly exercised a high degree of patience and control. In fact, according to Marshall's evidence he even appeared charming. He also had a long time to consider an ideal murder site, and to work out an ideal strategy.

If the killer was BS man, this raises a number of questions: why did he suddenly loose control and attack Stride in front of two witnesses? Why did he make such a clumsy initial attempt to overpower Stride, allowing her to cry out three times? Why did he consider Berner Street, which he initially tried to pull Stride towards, to be such an ideal location for a murder. I mean, unlike Mitre Square, it was largely residential, and it was better lit. And there was also a substantial risk he would be interrupted: by Fanny Mortimer, for example. I doubt that even she would fail to notice someone being eviscerated in front of her! And then there are the people exiting the club, I.e Lave, Eagle. And, of course, PC Smith. In fact, he probably couldn't have chosen such a worse time- in front of witnesses-and location.

[Batman]

... But NinjaMan can because....

Special powers?

[Batman]

Oh great, so looks as though George Hutchinson was telling the truth after all!

He is a different Category. Schwartz has good reason to be going home past where someone was murdered. This is different from a witness who has no good reason for being there.

[John G]

... But NinjaMan can because....

Special powers?

Well, Mr Not-So-Quite-As-Stupid As BS man decided that the pitch black darkness of Dutfield's Yard would be a preferable location. Oh, and he also decided that it was a good idea to make sure no witnesses were observing the proceedings, and to ensure that Stride was taken by surprise and given no opportunity to cry out.

[John G]

He is a different Category. Schwartz has good reason to be going home past where someone was murdered. This is different from a witness who has no good reason for being there.

Well, Mathew Packer had a perfectly good reason to be selling grapes, but it doesn't mean he sold any to JtR!

[Batman]

Well, Mr Not-So-Quite-As-Stupid As BS man decided that the pitch black darkness of Dutfield's Yard would be a preferable location. Oh, and he also decided that it was a good idea to make sure no witnesses were observing the proceedings, and to ensure that Stride was taken by surprise and given no opportunity to cry out.

He failed too because coincidentally he was disturbed also.

Coincidentally she is attacked twice and coincidentally her attackers are both disturbed.

The multiple assault hypothesis is in the realm of such low probability with the chance of it happening with a double disturbance as to make it extremely unlikely.

Add in a coincidental JtR attack for those who think Stride not a ripper victim and coincidental GSG after the Lipski incident and you have ideas based on multiple coincidences that are needed to make them work. Looking at this logically entails eventually rejecting it.

[John G]

He failed too because coincidentally he was disturbed also.

Coincidentally she is attacked twice and coincidentally her attackers are both disturbed.

The multiple assault hypothesis is in the realm of such low probability with the chance of it happening with a double disturbance as to make it extremely unlikely.

Add in a coincidental JtR attack for those who think Stride not a ripper victim and coincidental GSG after the Lipski incident and you have ideas based on multiple coincidences that are needed to make them work. Looking at this logically entails eventually rejecting it.

You're assuming Schwartz was telling the truth. Even if he was he may have been seriously mistaken about what he saw. I mean, what if it wasn't Stride being attacked? He could have witnessed a common domestic dispute between, say, the couple seen by Fanny Mortimer.

In fact, even his timings could have been completely wrong. Thus, Fanny Mortimer seemed to be confused as to the time, believing that she'd been outside for nearly the whole period between 12:30 and 1:00am, and yet she missed several incidents. Spooner said he got to Dutfield's Yard about 12:35, but it must have been around half an hour later. So, Schwartz could have witnessed a domestic dispute, involving a different couple (I don't think he mentions the woman wearing a flower) at, say, around 12:15.

[lynn cates]

Tales R Us

Hello Batman.

"Also there seems to be a misconception that what Schwartz recounted was exactly what happened. Yet there is simply no evidence that there needs to be a 1:1 correlation for this to be true."

Schwartz misspoke? Very well. I'm good with that.

I agree that witnesses can give different tales. Problem is, NO one else told this tale.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello John.

"But this means that Schwartz's account has no evidential value at all."

Bingo. Do you play professionally? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC