The Cachous

[lynn cates]

alternative

Hello Errata.

"So either she didn't catch herself with her hands at all, or she didn't catch herself with her hands in any meaningful way, meaning she caught herself say, with her knees from a slow fall and placed her hands on the ground."

Or that the story was made up?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

terror

Hello CD.

"I suggest an experiment. If you have a friend, ask them to stand near their bed and then suddenly throw themselves upon it. (Don't tell them why until afterwards). Then ask them if they had their hands outstretched.

Then ask them to lie on the ground and take note of how they got up. See if they put their weight on their outstretched hands.

Then grab them and try to pull them and have them resist. Notice if their palms are outstretched or in a fist.

Please share the results of your experiments."

For some reason, the "other side" are terrified of such experiments. Wonder why?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

futile

Hello John.

"However, none of those examples referred to by Dane are relevant."

Alas, it is futile to point this out. A simple experiment--CD's--would show the truth.

This is a waste of time.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John.

"However, none of those examples referred to by Dane are relevant."

Alas, it is futile to point this out. A simple experiment--CD's--would show the truth.

This is a waste of time.

Cheers.
LC

Yes, I think positions have become entrenched! I think Errata makes a good point: there is no evidence of the skin being broken, and I doubt this could have been avoided however she fell.

[Jon Guy]

And if some of the trolls on this thread would simply TRY this, the truth could be quickly ascertained.

.. and what was the outcome, Troll King ?

[Jon Guy]

Yes, I think positions have become entrenched! I think Errata makes a good point: there is no evidence of the skin being broken, and I doubt this could have been avoided however she fell.

I must apologise, John.

Yesterday afternoon I was in Hereford, and I was lucky enough to be invited by a colleague to a S.A.S. hand to hand combat training session in the main gymnasium on the camp.

Near the end of the session, to my surprise, the Sergeant Major addressed the handful of dignitaries who were watching the display. He told us we were about to witness hand to hand combat armed only with a packet of cachous.
I hadn`t realised how difficult it was to hold on to the little buggers when losing one`s balance. It apparently requires great skill and many years of practise.

You et al were correct all along. So, I apologise.

Anyway, the day ended with the Sergeant Major inviting Batman, Abby Normal and myself to Hereford to demonstrate our natural ability in the art of the cachous.

[John G]

I must apologise, John.

Yesterday afternoon I was in Hereford, and I was lucky enough to be invited by a colleague to a S.A.S. hand to hand combat training session in the main gymnasium on the camp.

Near the end of the session, to my surprise, the Sergeant Major addressed the handful of dignitaries who were watching the display. He told us we were about to witness hand to hand combat armed only with a packet of cachous.
I hadn`t realised how difficult it was to hold on to the little buggers when losing one`s balance. It apparently requires great skill and many years of practise.

You et al were correct all along. So, I apologise.

Anyway, the day ended with the Sergeant Major inviting Batman, Abby Normal and myself to Hereford to demonstrate our natural ability in the art of the cachous.

Hello Jon,

Great to hear from you again. Sounds as if you had a fabulous day out in Hereford- and I am not at all surprised that you were able to demonstrate your innate ability in the mysterious art of cachous grasping! Unfortunately, as I'm only Number 2, I fear it would be completely beyond my more limited capabilities.

[lynn cates]

talk

Hello John. Thanks.

"Yes, I think positions have become entrenched! I think Errata makes a good point: there is no evidence of the skin being broken, and I doubt this could have been avoided however she fell."

Now you're talking. Schwartz talked a good talk--but that's ALL it was.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Yes, I accept it's theoretically possible. Yes, I accept my response was a little hypocritical, although perhaps intentionally so, because after a bad start to the day I suddenly remembered I believe in free speech- as I said to Jon I have never reported a post and I never will. So, yes, on that basis I hypocritically broke my own code of conduct. And so yes, on that basis I feel I should apologize. So I apologize.

Hi JohnG

Yes, I accept it's theoretically possible

I'll Take it!!

and I think that's as close as were going to get, so will leave it at that. and like I said, I think that it is very possible she WOULD have dropped them also.

So I apologize

That's very gracious of you John. I apologize to you also.

[John G]

Hi JohnG



I'll Take it!!

and I think that's as close as were going to get, so will leave it at that. and like I said, I think that it is very possible she WOULD have dropped them also.



That's very gracious of you John. I apologize to you also.

Hello Abby,

Thanks. I was feeling guilty about my overreaction, which I apologize for again, particularly as you're obviously such a nice person and I'm sure we agree on so many other points. I find so many of your posts highly informative.

I suppose it comes down to instinct at the end of the day. I instinctively believe that Stride was a JtR victim, but I just don't see BS man as JtR, which is why I feel compelled to argue against BS man at all costs!

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Thanks. I was feeling guilty about my overreaction, which I apologize for again, particularly as you're obviously such a nice person and I'm sure we agree on so many other points. I find so many of your posts highly informative.

I suppose it comes down to instinct at the end of the day. I instinctively believe that Stride was a JtR victim, but I just don't see BS man as JtR, which is why I feel compelled to argue against BS man at all costs!

Thanks again JohnG-no worries.

I too think that Stride was a ripper victim, but I think that BS man was more than likely her killer and the ripper.

The final straw for me in that regard is this:

The witnesses that night-marshall, PC Smith, Schwartz and lawende all describe a man wearing a peaked cap who was seen with both Stride and eddowes. Not only that there was a report in the papers that before any of these descriptions were made public a man was seen acting suspicious in Church st. wiping his hands, trying to hide his face, about the time inbetween the murders of stride and eddowes. and you guessed it-wearing a peaked cap.

Its too much of coincidence for me and ties it all together. The ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

And in regards to the witness Brown (his man NOT wearing a hat)-I don't think he saw stride and the ripper. I believe he probably saw the young lovers that mrs. Mortimer referred to.

[Batman]

Apparently NinjaMan's Dad is bigger than BSman's Dad, so NinjaMan can bring a woman down with cachous in hand and not spill a single one. BSman can't do that because his Dad isn't as big as NinjaMan's Dad.

Anything BSman can't do, can be done by NinjaMan because NinjaMan's Dad says so.

Especially turning knots to the left.

As a note. If I was going to put my money where my mouth was I certainly wouldn't do it with a camcorder from a behind angle that doesn't capture any of the forensics some people says it does i.e - cachous in hand, knife on scarf and then ask people to trust my memory. Oh yeah about that bloodless scarf and shoulder bruising and mud on each side. NinjaMan strikes again right?

[John G]

Thanks again JohnG-no worries.

I too think that Stride was a ripper victim, but I think that BS man was more than likely her killer and the ripper.

The final straw for me in that regard is this:

The witnesses that night-marshall, PC Smith, Schwartz and lawende all describe a man wearing a peaked cap who was seen with both Stride and eddowes. Not only that there was a report in the papers that before any of these descriptions were made public a man was seen acting suspicious in Church st. wiping his hands, trying to hide his face, about the time inbetween the murders of stride and eddowes. and you guessed it-wearing a peaked cap.

Its too much of coincidence for me and ties it all together. The ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

And in regards to the witness Brown (his man NOT wearing a hat)-I don't think he saw stride and the ripper. I believe he probably saw the young lovers that mrs. Mortimer referred to.

Hi Abby,

I also agree that Marshall might have seen Stride with her killer. However, he describes someone who was "mild speaking" and spoke like an educated man. And that's just not the impression I get of BS man, with his shouts of "Lipski" and unsubtle behaviour. In fact, I think Marshall's man would be more likely to say to Schwartz something like, "Be off with you my good man, before I'm compelled to give you a damned good thrashing!"

The difficulty I have with Brown's identification, and the couple seen by Mortimer, is that if they were just innocent bystanders, wouldn't they have come forward for elimination purposes? After all, Goldstein came forward and he might have been regarded as a strong suspect, particularly on account of his little black bag!

[John G]

Apparently NinjaMan's Dad is bigger than BSman's Dad, so NinjaMan can bring a woman down with cachous in hand and not spill a single one. BSman can't do that because his Dad isn't as big as NinjaMan's Dad.

Anything BSman can't do, can be done by NinjaMan because NinjaMan's Dad says so.

Especially turning knots to the left.

As a note. If I was going to put my money where my mouth was I certainly wouldn't do it with a camcorder from a behind angle that doesn't capture any of the forensics some people says it does i.e - cachous in hand, knife on scarf and then ask people to trust my memory. Oh yeah about that bloodless scarf and shoulder bruising and mud on each side. NinjaMan strikes again right?

Hello Batman,

You obviously think Chapman is a strong suspect, but do you really think that BS man resembles Chapman, particularly as regards his unsubtle, and somewhat uncouth, behaviour? Wouldn't Chapman be much closer to the man described by Marshall?

[Errata]

Hello Errata.

"So either she didn't catch herself with her hands at all, or she didn't catch herself with her hands in any meaningful way, meaning she caught herself say, with her knees from a slow fall and placed her hands on the ground."

Or that the story was made up?

Cheers.
LC

Possible.

But if it's true we know she was thrown or pushed. People are pushed from the front and fall backward tend to reach forward to catch the person who pushed them. It also happens if you say, run into a pole, but that happens less often because who runs into poles other than texting pedestrians? So she may have done that and just hit with her butt. Or she was thrown and got few steps in before falling, and that arrests the momentum, but also causes people to sort of fold at the legs. So they sink down sort of instead of falling. Or she hit the fence before going down, and that usually results in sitting down hard.

I mean there's a lot of things that could have happened. And lets just all accept that the account given by Schwartz is one of the least descriptive accounts ever given that still uses descriptive language. Screaming softly three times? What the hell is that? We know the condition of the body, assuming of course the coroners got it right. Because of the condition of the body we know she didn't scrape herself up, we know she wasn't dragged, we know that she was essentially upright shortly before she was attacked.

Schwartz's story is an interesting story. And I personally think it's true (though I'm not wedded to the idea). And those men may have been her killers. I personally don't think she was a Ripper victim. But her body tells us the truth. And if the story contradicts the condition of her corpse, then the story isn't true. Or we aren't interpreting it correctly.