The Cachous

[lynn cates]

forensics

Hello MacGuffin.

"we noticed she was clutching a freshly soiled kleenex in her right hand.
The final assessment was that she had sneezed, and while doing so, had drifted into the on-coming lane directly in front of the approaching semi-trailer."

Well reconstructed forensics.

Of course, on this thread, some lad is BOUND to think she was offering it to the trucker to blow HIS nose. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

red herring

Hello John.

"I think there is little doubt that Stride would have held on to the cachous following a sudden unexpected assault, I.e. from behind, or a car crash for that matter, but that is not what Schwartz describes, and it is a "red herring" to keep suggesting otherwise."

Now, now, some lads know no other argument strategies.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

fractured fairy tale

Hello Abby. And was she thrown to the ground?

But I agree with you--enough nonsense about Schwartz and his fairy tale.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

According to Schwartz Stride was thrown to the ground after struggling with BS man as he tried to pull her towards the street. In such circumstances her natural instinct would be to throw out her arms to break the fall, thus dropping the cachous, or at least splitting the packet, which is exactly what c.d. did when falling from her bike. In fact, if she didn't break her fall she probably would have suffered significant injuries at this point, I.e. facial injuries or a broken arm, and where's the evidence for that? Where's the evidence Stride suffered any impact injuries as the result of a failure to break a fall, ie after being thrown to the ground?

First of all, I don't think there is any reason to believe Stride had her cachous out during the attack witnessed by Schwartz. I think they were still in her bodice, and possible that's what left the abrasion under her collarbone. I think she pulled the out after retreating from that scene, and pulled them out to soothe her nerves, the way she would have lit up a cigarette had she had one.

As for why she didn't have injuries from that assault, there could be a lot of reasons. When people fall back they tend to reach forward, so they don't break their fall with their hand. Biologically speaking you don't have to. When we fall forward we put our hands down specifically to protect our face. If the face isn't in danger, we tend not to catch ourselves. She also might have been wearing enough layers that the impact left no marks on her. Especially if she fell on her butt. And again, the descriptive words in the statement could mean a dozen different things, so we don't know how she fell. If she went forward did she go down to her knees, or did she go flat? If she went backwards did her butt hit first or her shoulders? Did her loose clothing hit first and and that's how she avoided abrasions, or was she in the habit of wearing longer sleeves or keeping her hands tucked in her sleeves and that's why she didn't bust up her hands? or was it slow enough that she was able to lower herself down?

The scene Schwartz described was weird. There was conflict but not intent. Most assuredly one of those men put her down, and that is an act of violence. But he pushed her. He didn't punch her in the face, he didn't hit her over the head... it was controlled violence. He wasn't hurting her to hurt her, he was hurting her to control her. And that makes the entire scene very different that one of two guys trying to kill some girl.

Nothing about the scene makes me think that this was two strangers trying to kill a strange woman. Nobody is acting right for that. It looks like a conflict between known entities. Doesn't mean they were friends, but I think they knew each other. From what Schwartz describe, if I walked past it I would think it was domestic. And conflict and violence between people who know each other is completely different from stranger conflict. Just like angry conflict is different from killing conflict.

If they knew each other, the entire episode is completely different than if these two guys were strangers to her. And they don't act like strangers. I mean, if you hear about an aggressive man tossing around a woman not calling attention to herself while the second man acts as a lookout, nobody thinks "serial killer". You think domestic violence or mob violence. Angry boyfriend or owed money. And it sounds strange but there are rules to fights between people who know each other that are completely different for fights between people who don't know each other. Different dynamic, different motivation, different outlook by the victim, different violence. Difference ways to hurt someone. It's kind of fascinating.

But if you think they knew each other, you are looking at a completely different attack than if they didn't. And to be frank, it makes more sense that those two men would kill her if they knew her.

[FrankO]

Nothing about the scene makes me think that this was two strangers trying to kill a strange woman. Nobody is acting right for that. It looks like a conflict between known entities. Doesn't mean they were friends, but I think they knew each other. From what Schwartz describe, if I walked past it I would think it was domestic. And conflict and violence between people who know each other is completely different from stranger conflict.

I agree, Errata. It looks more like they were known to each other than that they were strangers. Possibly, Stride didn’t want to make a scene out on the open street, which is supported by the fact that she didn’t scream loudly. For the same reason, she managed to calm the bloke down somewhat and get him to retreat with her in the yard and out of sight of the public. The spot seems good enough for that purpose. Maybe she managed to end the conflict in her favour and, on walking away towards the gates, allowed herself a cachou, either to calm her nerves or perhaps feeling good about herself. Her walking away or perhaps making some remark re-infuriated the bloke and even so much so that he grabbed her scarf from behind, etcetera.

All the best,
Frank

[John G]

Hello Errata,

Several years ago I suddenly fell backwards, without warning, after slipping on icy ground. My natural instinct was to throw out my arms and extend my hands. In fact, before impact I thrust my hands towards the ground, and consequently dislocated my shoulder. I think my instinct in this situation was probably to protect my head and back.

In fact, isn't this natural instinct the reason snowboarders and skateboarders suffer so many wrist injuries?

[Abby Normal]

I have no problem with someone holding on to something when threatened with a knife- in fact making a fist would probably be the natural thing to do in those circumstances. Nor holding on to something during a sudden attack. Nor holding on to something whilst tense, I.e because you're in fear for your life. Nor holding on to something whilst unconscious. Nor holding on to something whilst being dead. But none of that is directly relevant to a failure to break a fall whilst being thrown to the ground. It's the natural thing to do. Nor, as I said, is there any evidence, I.e. injuries to suggest that Stride was thrown to the ground, or that she failed to break a fall.

Your head is as thick as a brick, and after me and other professionals have proved to you that people can hold onto objects through violent attacks and death is common place yet stil persist in your inane objections, based partly on the fact that it does not match up with your beloved suspect, Francis Thompson, all I have to say to you is good day sir. Have fun in lala land!

[Batman]

I basically bookmarked it and that's that. Also its not the first time. A while back someone else discussed exactly the same things with experienced paramedics. Its a pity some people have frightfully poor memories but a link can remind them.

Moving onto greener pastures than this topic

[John G]

Your head is as thick as a brick, and after me and other professionals have proved to you that people can hold onto objects through violent attacks and death is common place yet stil persist in your inane objections, based partly on the fact that it does not match up with your beloved suspect, Francis Thompson, all I have to say to you is good day sir. Have fun in lala land!

Schwartz didn't witness a violent attack or someone being murdered! He witnessed a minor assault. The simple issue here is that when you are trying to break a fall, I.e after being "thrown" the natural instinct is to spread your hands! I mean even babies do it! I even found a personal injury website where those exact words were written. And if anyone should know it's a personal injury lawyer!

I would also reiterate what Phil Carter on the other thread has already pointed out to you and that is personal insults are against the rules of this board. If that what motivates you, rather than civil discussion, perhaps you should find some other forum.

But yes, enough of this nonsense.

[lynn cates]

industrial accident

Hello John. Funny you should mention slipping on ice.

When I was a young dustman, aged 18, I had a similar experience. Unfortunately, I extended a hand to break my fall--but in the working mechanism. My right middle finger was split open (still have the huge scar) and the bones in three fingers were splintered (doctor's words).

But at least I held onto the cachous. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

nonsense

Hello (again) John.

"The simple issue here is that when you are trying to break a fall, I.e after being "thrown" the natural instinct is to spread your hands!"

Absolutely. To argue otherwise is to talk nonsense.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Funny you should mention slipping on ice.

When I was a young dustman, aged 18, I had a similar experience. Unfortunately, I extended a hand to break my fall--but in the working mechanism. My right middle finger was split open (still have the huge scar) and the bones in three fingers were splintered (doctor's words).

But at least I held onto the cachous. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Yes, I have only just remembered the incident. The incredible thing is that I was suddenly propelled backwards, without warning, and yet I still opened by hands, thrusting them into the ground, to break the fall. If I hadn't I wouldn't have dislocated my shoulder!

[John G]

Hello (again) John.

"The simple issue here is that when you are trying to break a fall, I.e after being "thrown" the natural instinct is to spread your hands!"

Absolutely. To argue otherwise is to talk nonsense.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes, I'm amazed that certain posters appears to lack the intellect to grasp this basic fact. I am quite willing to accept that you can keep hold of things during car accidents. Or even in a scenario where a victim is wrested to the ground, whilst being repeatedly stabbed and then dragged into a hedge, However, none of that is remotely relevant to what Schwartz stated he witnessed. It is an obvious fact that when faced with the prospect of an impact injury, i.e because of being thrown to the ground, you would spread your hands to protect yourself- face, back, head- from injury.

The seriousness of the assault has nothing to do with it.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Lynn,

Yes, I'm amazed that certain posters appears to lack the intellect to grasp this basic fact. I am quite willing to accept that you can keep hold of things during car accidents. Or even in a scenario where a victim is wrested to the ground, whilst being repeatedly stabbed and then dragged into a hedge, However, none of that is remotely relevant to what Schwartz stated he witnessed. It is an obvious fact that when faced with the prospect of an impact injury, i.e because of being thrown to the ground, you would spread your hands to protect yourself- face, back, head- from injury.

The seriousness of the assault has nothing to do with it.

Oh, Johnny, and there was you whining about personal insults. Tut tut.

[John G]

Oh, Johnny, and there was you whining about personal insults. Tut tut.

Hello Johnny 2,

Touche! Of course, I wasn't referring to yourself, I consider you to be one of the Casebooks greatest intellects! But seriously, telling someone to go to "la la land" and calling them as "thick as a brick", is a little infantile, don't you think?

That said, I'm pretty robust. Unlike some, I've never reported a post and I've no intention of ever doing so. I believe in free speech.