A Possible Reason Why Jack Didn't Mutilate Liz

[Mitch Rowe]

If the Schwartz story has been disproven, then yes.

However, it has neither been proven nor dispelled, so the most prudent of investigator needs to keep an open mind on this aspect and not disregard it just cos 'it doesnt fit'.

Monty

And when I do consider Schwartz story I find I am confused and I get nowhere quickly. It looks to me like Liz was being led into a trap just like Chapaman. And then for some reason her killer decides to kill her and run away. Dimschutz story can explain this. The chances are slim that Liz was attacked by two Men that night. So Schwartz story seems most likely to be false to me. If Liz had died in the "Street" like Polly or Alice then Schwartz story might be considered. But it seems to me Liz and Annie were doing pretty much the same thing when they were killed. Leading their killer to a semi secluded area for sex.

[Roy Corduroy]

fisty-cuffs

No cuffs, no ties, no tails, Ben.

Roy

[Monty]

Mitch,

And when I do consider Schwartz story I find I am confused and I get nowhere quickly. It looks to me like Liz was being led into a trap just like Chapaman. And then for some reason her killer decides to kill her and run away. Dimschutz story can explain this. The chances are slim that Liz was attacked by two Men that night. So Schwartz story seems most likely to be false to me. If Liz had died in the "Street" like Polly or Alice then Schwartz story might be considered. But it seems to me Liz and Annie were doing pretty much the same thing when they were killed. Leading their killer to a semi secluded area for sex.

Its not unlikely that she was attacked twice. Ive read a few news accounts where the victim was attacked twice. Not common I grant you that, but possibile.

Also, Sadler had a good kicking few times during an evening. Though some of that was his own fault.

Monty

[Ben]

Hi Monty,

Its not unlikely that she was attacked twice. Ive read a few news accounts where the victim was attacked twice.

It depends on the nature of the second attack. The notion that Jack snuck in after the broadshouldered man departed is unlikely in the extreme, as it would mean that Stride was attacked by twice by two unrelated individuals at the same location within minutes of eachother. Unless Schwartz fabricated the encounter, the broad-shouldered man was almost certainly her killer.

Best regards,
Ben

[Monty]

Ben,

I agree, however, it can happen.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DEFDA123AF935A25751C1A96F948260

Monty

[Natalie Severn]

Also it was tipping out time when a lot of drunken pub goers would behave like in passing----that if they saw a woman soliciting.And thats all they would do----

[perrymason]

I think suggesting that Liz was attacked twice in 15 minutes is a bit of a stretch myself, but since some would like to entertain that idea, I would be very interested to hear the explanation for having "himself" appear at that location.

By Lave and Eagle, no-one was in the yard since 12:40am.
We can only account for a single man in the vicinity with Liz after Schwartz leaves.
Fannie Mortimer spends more time at her door looking into the street from 12:45 on until 1am, than she did from 12:30 to 12:45am, and only sees one man walk past the gates. We also know now that was Mr Goldstein, ..not "Jack".

Wess had been in the yard earlier, Mrs Diemshutz had looked out from the side door, Lave spent a few minutes in the yard, and as he left Eagle came through it. Eagle arrived back at the club at 12:40am by his account, and walked right past the place Schwartz says he saw Liz encounter Broadshoulders in less than 5 minutes. In that 5 minutes Liz arrived at that location..she wasnt standing there before then, because Eagle would not have been able to miss seeing her if she was. And she was not in the yard, as Eagle effectively resumes Laves watch of the yard.

Liz arrives, Broadshoulders arrives on scene, with Schwartz following. The altercation. Schwartz continues on hurriedly, Pipeman across the street leaves as well. Its now 12:46am.

Liz is cut sometime in the next 14 minutes, and the evidence suggests it was before 1am. And we still have Liz in the company of Broadshouldered Man when the only street witnesses have left.

For Jack to appear, Broadshouldered Man has to have left...we have no evidence that suggests that, and he had to come via the street...which was viewed sporadically by Fanny Mortimer until almost 1am.

So....Jack would have to arrive after BSM leaves, without being seen by Fanny while in the street, or by Goldstein as he walked past mere feet from where Liz is found, and glanced at the Club....which was behind him to his right as he passes.My point on that being I believe he looked in and saw nothing because Liz was already dying in the shadows of the gate.

If Jack did not arrive or kill Elizabeth until the last moment, then Goldstein would have seen a couple inside the gates. Even as shadowed forms.

Jack isnt invisible, nor is he able to appear and disappear like magic. And I cant see how anyone can suggest he arrives with zero evidence that anyone arrives after 12:46am or before 1am, and while we have the assailant in Liz's company.

Best regards all.

[Jeff Leahy]

Just playing Devils advocate here Michael..

But am I not correct in remembering that there was a door discovered inside Berners yard, locked from the inside...?

Perhaps Jack never went into the Street? He accessed the yard from the rear?

[perrymason]

Just playing Devils advocate here Michael..

But am I not correct in remembering that there was a door discovered inside Berners yard, locked from the inside...?

Perhaps Jack never went into the Street? He accessed the yard from the rear?

Hi Pirate Jack,

To my knowledge, there was a window in one of the gate doors that could be used to sell things through with the doors closed, there was the side door to the club, and there was a high fence at the very back of the yard which I believe had stairs leading up to a ledge, or a ladder. There was of course the Arbeter Fraint office, unused stables, and some cottages opposite the Club side wall.

Jack could have been there for some time hiding. But that would presuppose that he planned this, the location, and perhaps the victim. Its my understanding that most theories on Jack suggest he may have done the first, but could'nt predict or chose not to dictate the second or third.

Best regards.

[Jeff Leahy]

Ah found it..

Inspector Reid did make a curius statement at the inquest, which was reported without comment in the Times 6th Oct. He said that on searching the building in the yard he discovered that 'a door of a loft was found locked on the inside, and it was forced. The loft was searched, but no trace of the nurderer could be found' nor apparently was there any trace of the person who bolted the door from the inside...

One might presume that someone escaped through a window? but why?

[Mitch Rowe]

Ah found it..

Inspector Reid did make a curius statement at the inquest, which was reported without comment in the Times 6th Oct. He said that on searching the building in the yard he discovered that 'a door of a loft was found locked on the inside, and it was forced. The loft was searched, but no trace of the nurderer could be found' nor apparently was there any trace of the person who bolted the door from the inside...

One might presume that someone escaped through a window? but why?

Well..If Diemschutz and his wagon were blocking the entrance. Maybe the killer went another way? I wonder if the yard was paved? I guess not? That might explain a lack of footsteps being heard. But I cant fathom how the killer could have broken in without being heard. Unless the killer were an accomplished burglar.

[perrymason]

I do recall that now that you sourced it Pirate, but I wouldnt invest too much in it. One, it sounds like a loft as in hayloft, above the unused stables, and unused stables imply unused hayloft which may have been locked to prevent access... and two, it may have been locked for who knows how long. Or "forced" who knows when.

I believe the only access to that yard was over the back fence, through Dutfield Yards gates, or via the Clubs side door.

Cheers.

[Elias]

I think the answer is a combination of the ideas and theories people have brought up. He obviously had a massive compultion to attack on this night, which is why he moved on to another woman after being disturbed, this led to him choosing a victim in an unusually 'busy' spot. I think the sighting by Schwartz (when he displayed an air of nerves by calling out to him), possibly being watched by another man who ran off with Schwartz, together with the singing and obviously busy social club, had him on edge, aware that he was in danger. So when he heard the carriage arriving, even if if it wasn't immediatly upon him, he decided to duck for cover early enough to make sure he avoided detection, and probably waited in the darkness hoping to get a second go at Stride. As it turned out the body was noticed and I think he remained there and slipped out when he had his chance.

[DVV]

How can you be so sure that Jack is a pure compulsive and opportunist killer?
What if he eventually planned to kill twice, on this night?
That would explain why Stride's murder site appears to many as a wrong place for a JTR murder. (as to me, this argument is stronger than the doubtful Kidney's solution)
Jack can be an opportunist, but he can at the same time, and without contradiction, have planned some aspects of his deeds.
I'd like to know your feeling about GS graffito. Do you attribute it to Jack?
If so, the murderer shows clearly he has a problem with Jews, whether he is himself a Jew or not, and then appears an obvious link between the two murders: the Jews. Something that can't be the result of an exclusive compulsive or/and opportunist behaviour.
Thanks, Elias, and sorry for broken english.
DVV (aka Fu Manchu)

[caz]

Bout the only thing that does fit is that JTR wanted his money back. JTR was poor.

Hi Mitch,

This assumption is one that regularly pops up, but it doesn’t really add up.

A man never got rid of his money worries by leaving his hard-earned cash on dead prostitutes.

Equally, a penniless man may have had little chance of luring one to her death in the first place.

Is it not fair to say that if the killer tempted his victims with more money than he would have been willing or able to splash out on a live prostitute, he would have wanted to retrieve it all from the dead ones, regardless of his financial situation?

It’s all relative, because the man with a roof over his head and family responsibilities would see the need to hang onto his cash every bit as much as the loner without either.

And that’s without even considering the man with no money worries who is tighter than the proverbial duck’s arse. We all know he exists.

It’s at least possible that whoever killed Liz hung around afterwards for long enough to relieve her of any money she had on her.

Here is another possible scenario...Jack arrives on the scene shortly after the BS man has departed. He talks to Liz who shares her recent encounter with the BS man. Jack kills her but is afraid to stay longer fearing that either the BS man will return or the police (having been summoned by Schwartz) are on the way.

c.d.

Hi c.d,

I think there may have been undue influence recently from the insistence by Perry Mason that Liz’s killer did not stay long enough to witness the pony and cart making their entrance. We just don’t know that was the case, because contrary to what we have been asked to believe, Blackwell did not restrict (and could not reasonably have restricted) the time of death to a 10 minute window between 12.46 and 12.56. If, as several reports indicate, he was simply of the opinion that death had most probably occurred within 20 minutes - 30 at the very outside - of his own arrival, which he timed at 1.16, then he was most certainly not saying that Liz must have been dead for at least 20 minutes by the time he arrived, ie by 12.56 at the latest. Within the half hour offers no lower limit at all. It literally means at any time from half an hour before Blackwell checked his watch up until the point when he confirmed she was dead.

I see many possibilities, including Liz’s killer handing her the cachous, either as a bogus peace offering if he was also BS man; or to comfort and reassure her after BS man had gone off to bully someone else; or to distract her as he took out his knife, which he obviously had to do at some point before vanishing into thin air with no witnesses at all.

If there was plenty of time and opportunity for BS man to turn from visible bully into invisible cut-throat, there was also plenty of time and opportunity for BS the bully to take his leave and for Jack the cut-throat to take over, despite the dodgy ‘coincidence overload’ logic that he was very unlikely to encounter a potential victim within minutes of another man having accosted her. That may even have been one of the attributes he looked out for in a victim, and it would not have been too hard to find. It’s always that much harder for a woman to resist a simple act of kindness when she has just been treated to an act of open hostility, as these women must have been pretty much every time they were seen loitering on their own at a late hour with no particular place to go.

But since we know so little about either personality in this case - the bully or the cut-throat - who can really say whether one individual was involved here or two? We don’t have another example of a night when the ripper undoubtedly killed before 2am, when he could have been more heavily influenced by drink than in Buck’s Row, Hanbury or Miller’s Court. Equally, we don’t have a clue how he would have reacted if his next victim did not behave like Polly or Annie, or if he found himself stuck in his pick-up location and it could not safely double up as his mutilation location.

Or at least, we might have a clue if we didn’t automatically reject the possibility of Jack encountering two equally unfortunate, but very different women, on one of the nights when he was in the mood to rip.

Love,

Caz
X