Liz's breath?!

[Abby Normal]

Hi All,

While I fully concede that Schwartz may not have left us with a completely accurate picture for whatever reason (and any ulterior motive for this would be impossible to guess, never mind establish, so that way madness lies), there are bits of his testimony that don't quite fit with wholesale invention.

If he invented a threatening, bigoted thug in the shape of BS man, for example, shouting "Lipski!" while assaulting Stride, why did he invent Pipe Man, and why did he say he didn't know which man "Lipski" was aimed at? When someone makes up a story involving himself, and no other witness can contradict him, he can generally supply all the answers - precisely because he is making it up. Why pretend not to 'know' a detail like this about an incident he invented in the first place? He could have thoroughly milked it, by saying BS man looked directly at him, a Jew, and spat the word out to scare him off.

You can wish Schwartz's tale out of the picture all you like, but then what? You are left with just another dead unfortunate, and the pony and cart really could have disturbed her killer before he could do more than cut her throat!

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz

Agree.

why did he invent Pipe Man, and why did he say he didn't know which man "Lipski" was aimed at?

he invented Pipeman (and then later knife man) to help explain away his rather cowardly behavior. saying he did not know who Lipski was aimed at helps bolster Pipeman's (fake) existance. Schwartz knew exactly who Lipski was aimed at-and it did the trick-scared him off.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Caz. Not to mention 3 screams--soft ones. That looks so unreal that . . .

Cheers.
LC

She was yelling at him to stop, not screaming bloody murder because she thought she was being attacked by JtR.

[c.d.]

If Schwartz felt threatened, you have to imagine that whatever word he heard was accompanied by a nasty, intimidating look from the BS man.

c.d.

[curious4]

Swedish prostitutes

Hello c.d.

Any woman at the time in Sweden who had a child out of wedlock or contracted an std was automatically branded a prostitute and forced to register as one. They were subject to stringent rules, such as not going out after 11p.m., not being seen at their windows, not having a light in their windows, having to have blinds or shutters at the window and leading a quiet and regulated life, among other things. This was to prevent the spread of venereal disease, not out of any consideration for the women.

It was not unusual for servant women to be seduced or even raped by their employers, and once pregnant Liz was branded for life. Please take advantage of the chambermaid really MEANT something then!.

With this in mind, by leaving Sweden, Liz would have at least has a chance of a new beginning - and started out fairly well at least.

Best wishes
C4

[lynn cates]

prescience

Hello Abby.

"She was yelling at him to stop, not screaming bloody murder because she thought she was being attacked by JtR."

If so, then Liz was surely prescient, for JTR was not yet invented.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

blame the woman

Hello C4.

"Any woman at the time in Sweden who had a child out of wedlock or contracted an std was automatically branded a prostitute and forced to register as one."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby.

"She was yelling at him to stop, not screaming bloody murder because she thought she was being attacked by JtR."

If so, then Liz was surely prescient, for JTR was not yet invented.

Cheers.
LC

the name perhaps, but the person was alive and kicking

[curious4]

Hello C4.

"Any woman at the time in Sweden who had a child out of wedlock or contracted an std was automatically branded a prostitute and forced to register as one."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

Yepp! You didn´t get many women running round with axes after any man who gave them an std - after all, it was their fault!
C4

[Phil H]

....the person was alive and kicking...

And about to commit his third murder - but it probably wasn't Stride.

he was almost certainly NORTH of Whitechapel Rd, preparing to kill - his eventual victim would be Eddowes.

Michael Kidney on the other hand was stalking Liz Stride, who had been out on a date.

Phil

[caz]

If he invented a threatening, bigoted thug in the shape of BS man, for example, shouting "Lipski!" while assaulting Stride, why did he invent Pipe Man, and why did he say he didn't know which man "Lipski" was aimed at?

Given the clear language barrier could the man have said "Lizzie!" as has been suggested before now.

I doubt that Schwartz would have known who "Lipski" was - though the police may have jumped to that conclusion, as they DID know all about that case.

Phil

Of course that's a possibility, but in the context of the point I was making, if Schwartz invented the whole story he'd presumably have wanted the police to be in no doubt about whatever word he chose to put in the man's mouth!

Incidentally, would it be too much trouble to make a clear distinction between the known facts and your personal speculation? It's a wee bit patronising to your fellow debaters and could easily mislead a newbie. Just saying.

....the person was alive and kicking...

And about to commit his third murder - but it probably wasn't Stride.

he was almost certainly NORTH of Whitechapel Rd, preparing to kill - his eventual victim would be Eddowes.

Michael Kidney... was stalking Liz Stride, who had been out on a date.

Phil

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil H]

... would it be too much trouble to make a clear distinction between the known facts and your personal speculation?

I normally do, but on that occasion I was indulging in a touch of irony - in any case, the word "probably" was there.

It's a wee bit patronising to your fellow debaters...

You'll live and if you don't like humour I cannot help you. as a wise man once advised me - "The three Gs are the most important things in life - Greek, Grave and Gumption. You can learn Greek, and attain Grace, but if you don't have Gumption, heaven help you!!"

I believe you have more than enough "gumption" to take my meaning without any change in my phrasing.

... could easily mislead a newbie.

Then I suggest you address your remark to a wider audience than me. I think you'll find that where my posts are intended to be serious (the vast majority) I take pains to write clearly, explain terms and make clear when I am speculating.

Without regrets and cheekily (I hope),

Phil

[caz]

Hi All,

What is this obsession with whether or not Stride had ever sold sex? That was for her to know, and her killer to find out - assuming he even cared.

All that matters is what made her killer decide to attack her, when he came across her outside the club. And it will always remain a very distinct possibility (whether they knew one another or were complete strangers) that he thought of her as a loose woman who deserved what she got.

Peter Sutcliffe was able to delude himself (or more likely trying to fool everyone else) with the thought that any woman out alone at night must have been up to no good, and that was in a decade of women's lib and bra burning. So much easier in the LVP to think the same of any woman past her prime hanging about a club after midnight, especially when three similarly past their prime unfortunates had been slaughtered horribly nearby: one in early August; a second the last day of August; a third in early September. And now it was the last day of September. "Do the math."

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Chill out Phil.

Said with equal cheek and dollops of gumption. (See my signature if you were seriously wondering about my relationship with humour.)

Oh and I don't do regrets.

Love,

The Little Sparrow
X

[Phil H]

Excellent points caz.

If the killer was "Jack" then I am sure that it was perception not knowledge that was key.

After all, of the two immediately preceeding murders and the one to follow, only Nichols was definitely on the look out for clients at the time of her death.

Chapman was ill, had nowhere to go and while she may have been vaguely looking for bed-money, may not have been aware of what she was doing at all. As for Eddowes, we don't know for sure what she was doing or where she was going when "Jack" encountered her.

Phil

[curious4]

Prostitutes?

Hello Phil and Caz,

With you both on this as regards whether any of these women were engaged in prostitution when they were attacked. Jack was sole judge, jury and executioner. But Caz, it IS important - there is always someone who will think "Well, they were on the game, had only themselves to blame" AND I think the saying about he who steals my good name is applicable here.

Regards,
C4

"Follow your inclinations but with due regard for the policeman round the corner" - Somerset Maugham