Liz's breath?!

[praline]

I am still very new to this case and am not pointing any fingers but as an "old married lady" I think I can read between the lines of what Caz is trying to politely get at (maybe I could be wrong...) and honestly it was the very first thing that popped into my head when reading about these candies at the crime scene.

Granted this is a crime of sexual nature and they were prostitutes; I am still not comfy with explaining in detail why a prostitute would use these mints not for hygiene purposes but rather the "time is money" argument fisherman makes.

If you google altoids and oral sex or halls cough drops, tic tacs or any other breath freshing mint along with oral sex you will see there is a real connection and a very plausible reason a prostitute would have one in her hand before initiating oral sex and it would have nothing to do with taste or hygiene but rather a way of "speeding things up" if you will. This is a very old practice and every old married lady has used it once or twice to hurry things along a wee bit
Hopefully I did not overstep any G or pg ratings this site might have and if so I do apologize but I think in this case my argument is a valid one.

[Carol]

Hi everyone!

I'd like your views on a thought I've had for over a year now but have been too 'shy' to post it. It's this:

Is is possible that Stride had stolen the cachous while in the pub from the man who had pushed her to the ground? I can imagine that many men carried cachous around with them so that the wife would not be able to smell so strongly the amount of drink that had been consumed. I'm assuming here that he wasn't a local but lived in a middle-class location. As he was probably a bit the worse for drink himself he was acting rather more violently than he would normally have done. Which could explain the other man who was standing by watching them - he could have been an acquaintance of the other man.

I'm very interested to hear what you have to say so that I can stop having this thought keep poking at my brain.

Love
Carol

[Carol]

Hi Praline!
I forgot to say:
Welcome to Casebook! Enjoy yourself!
Love
Carol

[c.d.]

I'm not sure why people are attaching so much importance to the fact that Liz had breath mints in her possession. It's not like she was wearing a mink stole when she was killed. These are breath mints...they were cheap, readily available and apparently used by a number of people. All of the reasons given for Liz having them in her possession are reasonable and none are mutually exclusive.

The cachous are significant because (to me anyway) they show that she was caught off guard. I don't see how they would have survived being thrown down to the ground by the BS man or being dragged and having to fend off her attacker. That is their significance.

c.d.

P.S. Welcome to the boards, Praline.

[praline]

Thanks for the welcome!

I think, reading this thread and a couple dissertations on Stride there is some debate as to why she was there. Some think she was on a romantic date while others think she was "on the job". There was a statement made that a woman would not eat a mint before performing oral sex and it became a rather humorous debate. I wanted to add my own 2 cents into it as to what I thought when reading it.

The importance of her romantic date vs on the job is important. Many think Stride wasn't a JTR victim but rather a domestic dispute gone wrong. At least that is what I understand to be the issue. I am still new and reading many of these for the first time.

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello CD.

"The cachous are significant because (to me anyway) they show that she was caught off guard. I don't see how they would have survived being thrown down to the ground by the BS man or being dragged and having to fend off her attacker. That is their significance."

You are absolutely correct. If you'll permit me to observe, they serve as a kind of marker as to precisely where Liz was standing when attacked and her posture, etc. It also indicates, as you say, something of her mental state--no fear or discomfort with people/surroundings.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

I have always believed that the cashews were part and parcel of Stride's "date" that night - probably bought for her by the man she was with.

I don't think she was soliciting in any way that night - and thus the rather crude references earlier in this thread are utterly misplaced.

Like other posters, I have seen no evidence that other victims or others possessed (and thus used) breath fresheners in the way posited.

On the contrary, the cashews (taken with the flower) seem to me to indicate the rather "romantic" nature of her evening.

Phil

[GregBaron]

Date night...

You fine people have me a bit confused. Why are some people saying cashews? Cashews and cachous are not the same thing. I don’t think nut breath is that romantic. Or is the cashew the type of flower? A cashew and cachous double whammy. Also, what kind of dates to prostitutes have? Would this be a Prince Charming that is going to take her away from this awful life or is this simply a john/punter who is paying enough for several hours of frolic? And I thought Packer’s account was completely discounted? Is there any evidence she was with one particular man for any length of time? And finally, what kind of romantic date might one conjure up on Berner Street? Any elucidation would be much appreciated…



Greg

[c.d.]

Hi Greg,

First of all, as to the cachous, some people simply got their spelling wrong. It is cachous, the breath mint and not cashwew, the nut.

There is evidence that Liz was a part time prostitute so it is safe to assume that she had some kind of life outside of the profession. Porn stars today have boyfriends so it is not unreasonable that she could have been on a date. She ended up on Berner Street. If she did have a date, we don't know where it started and what it entailed. I don't think that there is any evidence that she was with one man exclusively.

c.d.

[Chava]

Hi Praline. Welcome to the boards!

I doubt any man interested in Liz would be chewing violet-scented cachous in the East End or anywhere else. It might...er...send the wrong impression!

It's possible she was chewing them to sweeten her breath. She likely wasn't brushing her teeth and she probably had a few cavities and likely, given her age and social circumstances gum disease as well. Out on a date or out on the ran-tan, she would do better with sweet breath than disgusting breath...

[GregBaron]

Handy knife?

Thanks c.d. that definitely helps....I'm not sure a porn star is a good analogy but I'll let that one go....so the theory is....I suppose of Phil and others..that Liz was on some sort of date as evidenced by the breath mints and somehow her ex Kidney got wind of it and came down to confront her and sliced her in a rage....I guess it's not a bad theory but if it wasn't planned did he just happen to have a large knife on him? I can't recall what he did if anything but did everyone carry knives? I don't think anyone suggests that BS man was Kidney so I suppose he must of slipped in there after BS and without any noise, struggling or fanfare and with Liz retaining mints in hand, he slit her throat. Hmmm, seems a stretch to me.........


Greg

[c.d.]

Hi Greg,

Yeah, the porn star thing wasn't a great analogy. I was looking at porn at the time and it just sort of came to mind. Just kidding. The date scenario is also backed by her preparations that evening as well as her wearing a flower. She was also supposedly seen with men that evening in a setting that could suggest a date. I don't buy into it but I don't think it is unreasonable.

Apparently, a lot of people did carry knives in connection with their profession and for personal protection.

Some people have put forth the idea that the BS man was Kidney.

c.d.

[Phil H]

Apparently, a lot of people did carry knives in connection with their profession and for personal protection.

Check out references to Henry James (not the author! - latest edition of A-Z p 247) a harmless lunatic at the time of the Nichols killing seen apparently carrying a knife! Simply dismissed from the investigation it seems - he has always intrigued me.

I believe that almost all working men would have carried at least a "clasp" knife as kind of almost all-purpose tool - potentially even as an eating iron.

Phil

[praline]

Hi Praline. Welcome to the boards!

I doubt any man interested in Liz would be chewing violet-scented cachous in the East End or anywhere else. It might...er...send the wrong impression!

It's possible she was chewing them to sweeten her breath. She likely wasn't brushing her teeth and she probably had a few cavities and likely, given her age and social circumstances gum disease as well. Out on a date or out on the ran-tan, she would do better with sweet breath than disgusting breath...

Hey there! I guess I wasn't clear with my discreet explanation soo please bare with me ~ not trying to make a X rated post but I think its important and maybe why she had the breath mint

for many many years women have used breath mints to make fellatio more enjoying for the man. It makes certain nerve endings extremely sensitive and due to this sensitivity ..well... they finish a lot faster so that (in this case) Liz could quickly finish with her job and be on her way.

The night before my wedding my GRANDMOTHER told me this trick so it would seem it has been around for many years and I would guess a prostitute would know about it. I mean ..well... time is money after all

(off to hide my head now)

[Fisherman]

Before we delve too deep into the area of nerve endings and breath mints, I think it is necessary to remind everybody about the fact that the cachous Stride had in her hand were, more often than not, referred to as "sweetmeats" by the papers. "Cachous", it seems, was a collective name for tablets of different kinds. Some of them were strong ones, like the famous Cachous Lajaunie (and these Lajaunie cachous did not enter the market until AFTER the Whitechapel murders, whereas other strong brands were surely around then), and others were very mild, flower-scented tablets, like rose or lavender cachous. And the latter ones would be the ones that were described as "sweetmeats".
Unfortunately, not being in the know about all of this, I cannot tell if the mild sweetmeats would produce the nerve-tickling sensation that Sarah Lee ascribes to breath mints, but something tells me that the more powerful the tablet, the more ...
Yes? Correct?

This brings a whole new dimension to the tablets named "Fishermans friend", mind you ...

The best,
Fisherman