Was Liz Stride a Ripper Victim?

[Kunochan]

I looked for previous discussions of this issue, and the only one I could find was from 2015.

I have an issue with the idea of "canonical" victims, since canonicity implies absolute truth. It seems very reasonable to assume Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes (and in my personal opinion Tabram) were murdered by the same killer. I also personally believe Kelly was, but good points have been made to suggest she wasn't.

I'm pretty convinced Stride was not killed by the same murderer. Here are my reasons; if I make any factual errors please let me know, I'm new to this.

1.) The location where Stride was killed was very busy at the time of the murder; none of the other murders took place in such an active, public place, or so early in the evening.
2.) Stride was not mutilated. This is usually explained by saying the murderer was interrupted; but again, it would be a very dumb place to commit the murder, since Stride was discovered very quickly after death. (Nichols was discovered just after death, but that was on an empty street.) There was a group of people singing just a few yards away!
3.) Stride was seen arguing with a man just minutes before her murder. Certainly the Ripper may have been speaking with victims before luring them to more private locations. But would he fight with her and call attention to himself? Would he then go ahead and kill her, basically on the same spot, after making a scene? Isn't it more likely that this man, NOT the Ripper, killed Stride in a fit of passion, and then fled?

Of course the killer could have been the Ripper, I can't prove otherwise. But I wouldn't be the first person to suggest that Stride was included in the Ripper murders because a "Double Event" made for a sexy story in the press. It seems the police considered her a Ripper victim, which cannot be ignored. But I've noted elsewhere I don't think much of the Met in 1888.

Anyway, am I making a decent argument? Have I missed anything? I'm curious to know what you think.

[c.d.]

Hello Kunochan,

Stride as a Ripper victim has been discussed ad nauseam and then some. But for some reason (I just checked) those threads seem to have disappeared. Don't know why.

Canonical victims or C5 is simply a way to group the victims believed to have been killed by the Ripper. It is not written in stone or is it religious doctrine which has to be believed and adhered to for fear of incurring everlasting torment. It is constantly debated and yes, Stride is the most controversial.

As for the location being too dangerous (yes, that is argued too), it assumes that Jack (at that time) should have calmly and coolly assessed the pro and cons of that location. But it is also possible that Jack simply decided he wanted to kill that particular woman at that particular time and everything else be damned.

The man seen arguing with Stride and throwing her to the ground is known as the B.S. man because he was described by Schwartz as having broad shoulders. There are a lot of threads pro and con arguing if he killed Stride and if he was in fact the Ripper as well.

As for arguments that Stride was a Ripper victim, the best are that she was a lone woman out late at night, had ties to prostitution and had her throat cut. And yes, interruption could explain the lack of mutilation.

Hope this helps a little. Stride is very complicated with many arguments being made surrounding her murder.

Hopefully the missing threads will soon reappear.

c.d.

[Kunochan]

Hello Kunochan,

Stride as a Ripper victim has been discussed ad nauseam and then some. But for some reason (I just checked) those threads seem to have disappeared. Don't know why.

Thanks for responding. If this is something that's already been discussed to death, I understand why forum regulars wouldn't want to rehash it.

On the other hand, if those discussions are deleted for some reason, it might be helpful for n00bz like me to go over it a bit—if anyone feels inclined.

Thanks again!

[Fiver]

Thanks for responding. If this is something that's already been discussed to death, I understand why forum regulars wouldn't want to rehash it.

On the other hand, if those discussions are deleted for some reason, it might be helpful for n00bz like me to go over it a bit—if anyone feels inclined.

Thanks again!

There's plenty of rehashing on this site, so don't sweat it.

MeNaughton's views were anything but universal.

* Reid thought there were 9 victims killed between 1888 and 1892. That appears to dismiss Kosminki and definitely dismissed Druitt. In 1912 he said nobody knew who the Ripper was, specifically dismissing all of McNaughton's suspects.
* Arnold though there were only 4 victims.
* Dew thought that Emma Smith and Martha Tabram were Ripper victims. He had no suspect.

Most other police did not say how many victims they thought there were.

My views are:
Nichols. Chapman, Eddowes - definite victims.
Tabram, Kelly - probable.
Stride - possible.
Mackenzie - unlikely, but still possible.

[GBinOz]

I looked for previous discussions of this issue, and the only one I could find was from 2015.

I have an issue with the idea of "canonical" victims, since canonicity implies absolute truth. It seems very reasonable to assume Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes (and in my personal opinion Tabram) were murdered by the same killer. I also personally believe Kelly was, but good points have been made to suggest she wasn't.

I'm pretty convinced Stride was not killed by the same murderer. Here are my reasons; if I make any factual errors please let me know, I'm new to this.

1.) The location where Stride was killed was very busy at the time of the murder; none of the other murders took place in such an active, public place, or so early in the evening.
2.) Stride was not mutilated. This is usually explained by saying the murderer was interrupted; but again, it would be a very dumb place to commit the murder, since Stride was discovered very quickly after death. (Nichols was discovered just after death, but that was on an empty street.) There was a group of people singing just a few yards away!
3.) Stride was seen arguing with a man just minutes before her murder. Certainly the Ripper may have been speaking with victims before luring them to more private locations. But would he fight with her and call attention to himself? Would he then go ahead and kill her, basically on the same spot, after making a scene? Isn't it more likely that this man, NOT the Ripper, killed Stride in a fit of passion, and then fled?

Of course the killer could have been the Ripper, I can't prove otherwise. But I wouldn't be the first person to suggest that Stride was included in the Ripper murders because a "Double Event" made for a sexy story in the press. It seems the police considered her a Ripper victim, which cannot be ignored. But I've noted elsewhere I don't think much of the Met in 1888.

Anyway, am I making a decent argument? Have I missed anything? I'm curious to know what you think.

Hi Kunochan,

Canonical victims, or C5, is simply a way to group the victims believed by McNaughton to have been killed by the Ripper.

Over the years I have sat on the fence, or waivered to one side or the other, but my latest thinking is towards the probability that Stride wasn't a ripper victim, basically for the reasons that you enumerate. I should add that I don't think that Kelly was a ripper victim either.

The problem with ripperology is that it is a conundrum without solution, a jigsaw with most of the pieces lost. Monumental debates are conducted over the vagaries of language that were not even considered by their authors, and were variously reported by the press at the time in conflicting presentations. If you plan to continue in this field of research and supposition, I can only say, welcome to the mad house.

Cheers, George

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

Far too much credence is given to Melville and his "McNaughton Memoranda." When one considers the facts that Sir Melville was NOT a trained police officer, did not even work for the police at the time of the murders, included ridiculous suspects like Ostrog and Druitt while getting basic information about them wrong, etc., and one must beg the question: why is this man being taken seriously at all? Before cronyism gave Melville his job, this guy spent the day managing his family's tea estate in India and passing the port.

IMHO, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly were all slain by the Ripper. A strong argument can and has been made for excluding Stride. I have no real dog in the fight; if it's ever proven that Stride was/wasn't a Ripper victim, then that's fine by me. For me, it's plausible that the Ripper was interrupted, so I lean ever so slightly toward Stride being a victim. Emma Smith was almost certainly the victim of a gang.

As I have recently come back into the fray after a very long layoff, I was not aware of there being any doubt about Mary Kelly. To entertain the idea that two diabolical serial killers set up shop in the same limited area, with similar M.Os., is too fantastic a thing for me. We must consider that, while violence (especially domestic) was common in the East End, murders of women were not. In fact, it was pretty rare.

Welcome!

[GBinOz]

Far too much credence is given to Melville and his "McNaughton Memoranda." When one considers the facts that Sir Melville was NOT a trained police officer, did not even work for the police at the time of the murders, included ridiculous suspects like Ostrog and Druitt while getting basic information about them wrong, etc., and one must beg the question: why is this man being taken seriously at all? Before cronyism gave Melville his job, this guy spent the day managing his family's tea estate in India and passing the port.

IMHO, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly were all slain by the Ripper.

Welcome!

Hi HIB,

I am in entire agreement with your assessment of McNaughton and his memorandum. Did you inadvertently omit Eddowes from your list? If not, I would be interested to hear your reason for doing so.

Cheers, George

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

Hi HIB,

I am in entire agreement with your assessment of McNaughton and his memorandum. Did you inadvertently omit Eddowes from your list? If not, I would be interested to hear your reason for doing so.

Cheers, George

Who the hell is "Eddowes"???

KIDDING!! Yeah, Forgot to mention her.

[GBinOz]

Who the hell is "Eddowes"???

KIDDING!! Yeah, Forgot to mention her.

No Problem HIB.

There is some medical evidence upon which one may speculate that the Eddowes and Kelly murders are related, to the exclusion of the others, but that is not the consensus of opinion.

Cheers, George

[erobitha]

Statistical Probability of Another Woman Being Murdered by Throat-Cutting on the Same Night

To assess the likelihood of another woman being murdered by throat-cutting in Whitechapel on the same night as Catherine Eddowes (September 30, 1888), we need to consider historical crime rates, population data, and serial killer behaviour.

1. Historical Murder Rates in Whitechapel (1888)

• Whitechapel was a dangerous area, with high crime rates, but murders were still relatively rare compared to assaults and robberies.
• Recorded murders in Whitechapel for 1888:
• The five canonical Ripper victims + other disputed cases.
• The majority of murders in the area involved beatings, stabbings, or strangulation—not throat-cutting.


Likelihood of Throat-Cutting as a Murder Method

• Most murders in Whitechapel at the time did not involve throat-cutting.
• The primary cause of death in violent assaults was blunt force trauma, stabbing, or strangulation.
• Throat-cutting is a highly specific and rare method, usually associated with ritualistic or extremely violent murders rather than casual street crime.

✅ Conclusion: The chance of another unrelated throat-cutting murder occurring on the exact same night is extremely low.


2. Population and Crime Data in 1888

• Whitechapel had an estimated population of 76,000, primarily consisting of impoverished individuals, including many sex workers who were highly vulnerable.
• The number of violent crimes (assaults, robberies, and domestic violence) was high, but murders were infrequent.
• In 1888, the murder rate in London was roughly 1.4 per 100,000 people per year, meaning Whitechapel might have had a handful of murders annually.

✅ Conclusion: The probability of two unrelated murders of women on the street by throat-cutting within the same hour is statistically improbable.


3. Serial Killer Behavior: The “Double Event”

• Serial killers sometimes commit multiple murders in a single night due to:
• Unfulfilled urges (the first kill was interrupted or did not provide full satisfaction).
• A ritual escalation (the killer feels emboldened and needs to “complete” the act).
• Compulsion (once started, the killer cannot stop until they feel satisfied).
• Other serial killers with “Double Events”:
• Ted Bundy (1974): Kidnapped and murdered two women (Janice Ott and Denise Naslund) in a single afternoon.
• Gary Ridgway (Green River Killer): On several occasions, he murdered multiple victims in one day.
• BTK Killer (Dennis Rader): Committed a spree killing of multiple victims within hours.

✅ Conclusion: Serial killers are far more likely than random street criminals to commit two near-identical murders in quick succession.


4. Geographic and Time Considerations

• Elizabeth Stride was murdered at 12:45 AM in Dutfield’s Yard.
• Catherine Eddowes was murdered at 1:45 AM, just 45 minutes later, in Mitre Square.
• The two locations were about 15 minutes apart by foot.
• If these were two different killers:
• The second killer would have had to independently decide to kill a woman with the exact same method within the same 45-minute period.
• The chances of this happening without prior coordination would be astronomically low.

✅ Conclusion: If another murderer was operating in the same area, on the same night, using the same method, it would be one of the most bizarre coincidences in criminal history.


5. Modern Probability Estimate

To put a rough numerical probability on this:

1. The annual murder rate in Whitechapel was low (~5–10 murders per year).
2. The rate of murder by throat-cutting was even lower (less than 1% of all violent crimes).
3. The chance of two independent throat-cutting murders happening within an hour, in the same small area, without being related, is effectively near zero.


Mathematically, this could be expressed as:



This means that the likelihood of a completely unrelated killer using the same method in the same area within an hour is statistically near impossible.

✅ Final Verdict: It is almost certain that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same person. The probability of two different killers performing the exact same act, at the exact same time, in the exact same area, is vanishingly small. Jack the Ripper likely killed both women.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

Statistical Probability of Another Woman Being Murdered by Throat-Cutting on the Same Night

To assess the likelihood of another woman being murdered by throat-cutting in Whitechapel on the same night as Catherine Eddowes (September 30, 1888), we need to consider historical crime rates, population data, and serial killer behaviour.

1. Historical Murder Rates in Whitechapel (1888)

• Whitechapel was a dangerous area, with high crime rates, but murders were still relatively rare compared to assaults and robberies.
• Recorded murders in Whitechapel for 1888:
• The five canonical Ripper victims + other disputed cases.
• The majority of murders in the area involved beatings, stabbings, or strangulation—not throat-cutting.


Likelihood of Throat-Cutting as a Murder Method

• Most murders in Whitechapel at the time did not involve throat-cutting.
• The primary cause of death in violent assaults was blunt force trauma, stabbing, or strangulation.
• Throat-cutting is a highly specific and rare method, usually associated with ritualistic or extremely violent murders rather than casual street crime.

✅ Conclusion: The chance of another unrelated throat-cutting murder occurring on the exact same night is extremely low.


2. Population and Crime Data in 1888

• Whitechapel had an estimated population of 76,000, primarily consisting of impoverished individuals, including many sex workers who were highly vulnerable.
• The number of violent crimes (assaults, robberies, and domestic violence) was high, but murders were infrequent.
• In 1888, the murder rate in London was roughly 1.4 per 100,000 people per year, meaning Whitechapel might have had a handful of murders annually.

✅ Conclusion: The probability of two unrelated murders of women on the street by throat-cutting within the same hour is statistically improbable.


3. Serial Killer Behavior: The “Double Event”

• Serial killers sometimes commit multiple murders in a single night due to:
• Unfulfilled urges (the first kill was interrupted or did not provide full satisfaction).
• A ritual escalation (the killer feels emboldened and needs to “complete” the act).
• Compulsion (once started, the killer cannot stop until they feel satisfied).
• Other serial killers with “Double Events”:
• Ted Bundy (1974): Kidnapped and murdered two women (Janice Ott and Denise Naslund) in a single afternoon.
• Gary Ridgway (Green River Killer): On several occasions, he murdered multiple victims in one day.
• BTK Killer (Dennis Rader): Committed a spree killing of multiple victims within hours.

✅ Conclusion: Serial killers are far more likely than random street criminals to commit two near-identical murders in quick succession.


4. Geographic and Time Considerations

• Elizabeth Stride was murdered at 12:45 AM in Dutfield’s Yard.
• Catherine Eddowes was murdered at 1:45 AM, just 45 minutes later, in Mitre Square.
• The two locations were about 15 minutes apart by foot.
• If these were two different killers:
• The second killer would have had to independently decide to kill a woman with the exact same method within the same 45-minute period.
• The chances of this happening without prior coordination would be astronomically low.

✅ Conclusion: If another murderer was operating in the same area, on the same night, using the same method, it would be one of the most bizarre coincidences in criminal history.


5. Modern Probability Estimate

To put a rough numerical probability on this:

1. The annual murder rate in Whitechapel was low (~5–10 murders per year).
2. The rate of murder by throat-cutting was even lower (less than 1% of all violent crimes).
3. The chance of two independent throat-cutting murders happening within an hour, in the same small area, without being related, is effectively near zero.


Mathematically, this could be expressed as:



This means that the likelihood of a completely unrelated killer using the same method in the same area within an hour is statistically near impossible.

✅ Final Verdict: It is almost certain that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same person. The probability of two different killers performing the exact same act, at the exact same time, in the exact same area, is vanishingly small. Jack the Ripper likely killed both women.

Wow! Holy Smokes! Your post is AWESOME!!!! Seriously, I cannot love it enough! These are the very considerations I have always felt defied probability and chance. May I ask where you got the stats? And THANK YOU!!

[Observer]

Wow! Holy Smokes! Your post is AWESOME!!!! Seriously, I cannot love it enough! May I ask where you got the stats? And THANK YOU!!

From his fevered mind which tells him if Stride is not a Ripper victim then Maybrick can not be the Whitechapel fiend

By the way, correct me if I am wrong, but do i detect a hint of sarcasm in your comments?

[Observer]

• Elizabeth Stride was murdered at 12:45 AM in Dutfield’s Yard.

Then why was "Maybrick", still standing over the unmutilated body of Elizabeth Stride as Diemshitz disturbed him at 1:00 a.m?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I looked for previous discussions of this issue, and the only one I could find was from 2015.

I have an issue with the idea of "canonical" victims, since canonicity implies absolute truth. It seems very reasonable to assume Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes (and in my personal opinion Tabram) were murdered by the same killer. I also personally believe Kelly was, but good points have been made to suggest she wasn't.

I'm pretty convinced Stride was not killed by the same murderer. Here are my reasons; if I make any factual errors please let me know, I'm new to this.

1.) The location where Stride was killed was very busy at the time of the murder; none of the other murders took place in such an active, public place, or so early in the evening.
2.) Stride was not mutilated. This is usually explained by saying the murderer was interrupted; but again, it would be a very dumb place to commit the murder, since Stride was discovered very quickly after death. (Nichols was discovered just after death, but that was on an empty street.) There was a group of people singing just a few yards away!
3.) Stride was seen arguing with a man just minutes before her murder. Certainly the Ripper may have been speaking with victims before luring them to more private locations. But would he fight with her and call attention to himself? Would he then go ahead and kill her, basically on the same spot, after making a scene? Isn't it more likely that this man, NOT the Ripper, killed Stride in a fit of passion, and then fled?

Of course the killer could have been the Ripper, I can't prove otherwise. But I wouldn't be the first person to suggest that Stride was included in the Ripper murders because a "Double Event" made for a sexy story in the press. It seems the police considered her a Ripper victim, which cannot be ignored. But I've noted elsewhere I don't think much of the Met in 1888.

Anyway, am I making a decent argument? Have I missed anything? I'm curious to know what you think.

There is this poll Kunochan…welcome to Casebook by the way.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/suspects/general-suspect-discussion/842121-stride-yes-no-or-god-knows

And this one.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/elizabeth-stride/834157-who-killed-stride

[erobitha]

Wow! Holy Smokes! Your post is AWESOME!!!! Seriously, I cannot love it enough! These are the very considerations I have always felt defied probability and chance. May I ask where you got the stats? And THANK YOU!!

ChatGPT. The data sources are quoted on there as well.